2Sam 24:13 vs 1Chr 21:12; Famine: 7 or 3 years?

LET us explain another claim of contradiction put forward by MUSLIM DEFENDER BEN LANCUYAN.

Lancuyan posited this question to me:

God sent his prophet to threaten David with how many years of famine?
Seven (2 Samuel 24:13)
Three (I Chronicles 21:12)

We have already proved in our previous posts that there are NO CONTRADICTIONS in the Bible. People like Lancuyan are either confused or have been misled by detractors of the Holy Book.

I praise and thank God for this new opportunity to further prove the inerrancy of the Sacred Scriptures.



To see the root of Lancuyan's confusion, let us read the two texts that he cited.

2Samuel 24:13

So Gad came to David and told him, and said to him, "Shall seven years of famine come to you in your land? Or will you flee three months before your foes while they pursue you? Or shall there be three days' pestilence in your land? Now consider and see what answer I shall return to Him who sent me."

 
1Chronicles 21:11-12

So Gad came to David and said to him, "Thus says the LORD, `Take for yourself either three years of famine, or three months to be swept away before your foes, while the sword of your enemies overtakes you, or else three days of the sword of the LORD, even pestilence in the land, and the angel of the LORD destroying throughout all the territory of Israel.' Now, therefore, consider what answer I shall return to Him who sent me."

So, in 2Samuel 24:13the prophet Gad told David of "seven years of famine," while in 1Chronicles 21:12, he was quoted as saying "three years of famine."

In Lancuyan's mind, "seven" and "three" are contradictory. He needs to be enlightened.



As I have said before, everyone should see differences in accounts as mere differences in POINTS OF VIEW or in the EXPRESSIONS used by the various authors. They usually MEAN THE SAME.

Between 2Sam 24:13 and 1Chr 21:12, there is really no difference in the BIBLICAL MEANING of "seven" and "three."

In the Bible, "seven" and "three" are synonymous. They have similar meanings. And that similar meaning is DIVINE or SPIRITUAL PERFECTION.

THREE is associated with the PERFECTION of GOD. While SEVEN is related with the PERFECTION of the SPIRIT.



When the author of 2Sam 24:13 wrote about what the prophet Gad told David, he merely quoted what the prophet actually said. So, 2Sam 24:13 says, "seven years."

Now, we already said in our other posts that the author of 1Chronicles is a priest or a religious person.

When he wrote 1Chr 21:12, he stressed that fact that the punishment being meted out to David was FROM GOD. It was an expression of GOD'S PERFECT WILL.

So, instead of simply quoting what the prophet said, the author of 1Chr 21:12 put God directly into the quotation by using "three."



And again, NO CONTRADICTIONS in the Bible.

What Bible detractors like Lancuyan and Muslim defenders call "contradictions" are only signs of their own lack of knowledge and understanding of what they are attacking.

Muslim exposes error in Quran 19:28

I WELCOME debates and discussions with MUSLIMS who ATTACK the BIBLE, CHRISTIANITY and the LORD JESUS. These debates expose more about Islam than their intended targets.

One thing exposed is the ERROR in QURAN 19:28, which a MUSLIM named BEN LANCUYAN, AFFIRMED--wittingly or unwittingly.

Quran 19:28 is about Islam's version of the Virgin Mary, who the verse (ayah) described as the "SISTER OF AARON."

The verse reads, starting from Quran 19:27 (from the Meanings of the Quran by Muhammad Mohsin Khan):

Then she brought him (the baby) to her people, carrying him. They said: "O Mary! Indeed you have brought a thing Fariyy (a mighty thing). [Tafsir Al-Tabari]

"O sister (i.e. the like) of Harun (Aaron)! Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman."

MARY, 'SISTER OF AARON'

In Quran 19:28, it is CLEAR that "Mary," the mother of the Islamic Jesus (Isa), is described as the "SISTER OF AARON."

Anyone who knows BIBLICAL HISTORY knows that Mary is NOT the "SISTER OF AARON."

Mary lived in New Testament times (6BC to 100AD), while Aaron lived in the Old Testament--some 1,200 up to 1,600 years earlier.

For those who don't know Aaron, he was the brother of Moses, who liberated the Israelites from Egypt, sometime in 1600BC to 1200BC.

The time difference makes the claim of Quran 19:28 as IMPOSSIBLE.

So, to people who know HISTORY and the BIBLE, there is a SERIOUS ERROR in Quran 19:28.

MARY is NOT the SISTER of AARON. It is that simple.

MARY, 'DAUGHTER OF IMRAN'

The claim of QURAN 19:28 that MARY is the BIOLOGICAL or LITERAL "SISTER OF AARON" is BOLSTERED by the claim of other verses in the Quran, specifically QURAN 66:12.

QURAN 66:12 states:

"And Maryam (Mary), the daughter of 'Imran who guarded her chastity. And We breathed into (the sleeve of her shirt or her garment) through Our Ruh [i.e. Jibril (Gabriel) ], and she testified to the truth of the Words of her Lord [i.e. believed in the Words of Allah: "Be!" - and he was; that is 'Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) as a Messenger of Allah], and (also believed in) His Scriptures, and she was of the Qanitun (i.e. obedient to Allah) ."

Who is IMRAN?

IMRAN is the Arabic equivalent of the name AMRAM, the FATHER of AARON in the OLD TESTAMENT.

Exodus 6:20 says:

"Amram married Jochebed his father's sister and she bore him Aaron and Moses, and the length of Amram's life was one hundred thirty-seven years."

So, the claim of QURAN 19:28 that MARY is the "SISTER OF AARON," plus the claim of QURAN 66:12 that MARY is "the DAUGHTER OF IMRAN" provide CLEAR BASIS for saying that the QURAN SEES MARY is the LITERAL and BIOLOGICAL SISTER of AARON.

And for those who know HISTORY and the BIBLE, QURAN 19:28 and QURAN 66:12 PROVE a SERIOUS ERROR in the TEXTS.

 

NO ERROR, SAY MUSLIMS

Not surprisingly, MUSLIMS, like LANCUYAN who ATTACK the Bible based on the flimsiest of reasons, insist that there is "no error" with Quran 19:28 declaring that MARY is the "SISTER OF AARON."

But it was in defending Quran 19:28 that Lancuyan affirmed its error.

Lancuyan said in his blog (Defender of the Straight Path):

"We, MUslims will die with fact that Mary is NOT a biological sister of Aaron."

Oddly, as I said, Lancuyan made that statement while trying to disprove any error in Quran 19:28.

As it turned out, he even HIGHLIGHTED the error by directly CONTRADICTING the claim of the verse that Mary is the "SISTER OF AARON."

In short, even Lancuyan agrees that Mary "SISTER OF AARON" is WRONG.

Even Muslims DISAGREE with the claim of QURAN 19:28.

Ahaziah: How old was he when he ruled?

MUSLIM  DETRACTORS continue their attack on the Bible by bringing up more supposed contradictions in the Holy Book.

One detractor, Ben Lancuyan, pointed out what he claimed were inconsistencies between 2Kings 8:26 and 2Chronicles 22:2.

Ben asked,

How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?

Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)

As I already proved before, there are NO CONTRADICTIONS in the BIBLE. DETRACTORS only DO NOT UNDERSTAND or REFUSE to UNDERSTAND the TEXTS.

Again, let us explain what DETRACTORS DO NOT COMPREHEND.

Let us start by reading the two verses.

2Kings 8:26
Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign; he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Athaliah, a granddaughter of King Omri of Israel. 

2Chronicles 22:2
Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign; he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name was Athaliah, a granddaughter of Omri.

TAKEN in ISOLATION, or OUT OF CONTEXT, it would appear that there is inconsistency. In 2Kings 8:26, Ahaziah began to reign when he was 22 years old. Meanwhile, in 2Chr 22:2 he was 42 years old.

But put in CONTEXT, we would see that 2Kings 8:26 and 2Chr 22:2 are talking of TWO DIFFERENT THINGS using TWO DIFFERENT POINTS OF VIEW.

KING AT 22 BUT DID NOT REIGN UNTIL 42

2Kings 8:26 refers to the time when Ahaziah took the throne in Judah after his father, Jehoram, died.

Jehoram died when he was 40 years old. He was 32 years old when he became king and died after an eight-year term. (2Chr 21:20)


With his father only 40 years old when he died, it is understandable that Ahaziah was only 22 when he assumed the throne.

That was why 2Kings 8:26 said that "Ahaziah was twenty-two years old when he began to reign."

However, it should be noted that Ahaziah was not supposed to take the throne because he was the youngest among Jehoram's sons. Heirs to the thrown were usually the eldest or older sons.

But all of Ahaziah's older brothers were killed by the Philistines. (2Chr 21:16; 2Chr 22:1)

Having no one else to take the throne, the people of Jerusalem hailed Ahaziah as king.

2Chronicles 22:1 says:

The inhabitants of Jerusalem made his (Jehoram's) youngest son Ahaziah king as his successor; for the troops who came with the Arabs to the camp had killed all the older sons. So Ahaziah son of Jehoram reigned as king of Judah.

Because he was not really supposed to take the thrown, he was not suited to be king. So, he sat as king but it was really his mother, Athaliah, who ran the throne.

2Chronicles 22:3 says:

He also walked in the ways of the house of Ahab, for his mother was his counselor in doing wickedly.

It was only 20 years later, when he was already 42 when he actually reigned. That is why 2Chr 22:2 said that "Ahaziah was forty-two years old when he began to reign."



22 VS 42, A CONTRADICTION?
So, 2Kings 8:26 said "22" and 2Chr 22:2 said "42." Do they contradict?

NO. In fact, THEY are BOTH CORRECT.


As I said, it was a matter of POINT OF VIEW.

The SCRIBE who wrote 2Kings 8:26 considered the time (age 22) when Ahaziah ASSUMED or TOOK the throne.

The CHRONICLER, who wrote 2Chr 22:2, considered the time when Ahaziah ACTUALLY RULED as KING (age 42).


So, NO CONTRADICTION.

2Sam 24:9 vs 1Chr 21:5: Bible Contradictions?

MUSLIM DETRACTORS of the BIBLE and CHRISTIANITY cite 2Samuel 24:9 and 1Chronicles 21:5 to show supposed "contradictions" in the Bible.

One such MUSLIM DETRACTOR is BEN LANCUYAN who posed to me the question below:

How many fighting men were found in Judah?
Five hundred thousand (2 Samuel 24:9)
Four hundred and seventy thousand (I Chronicles 21:5)

LIKE MOST Muslim detractors, BEN LANCUYAN, SIMPLY DOES NOT UNDERSTAND what he is asking about.


THERE are NO CONTRADICTIONS between 2Samuel 24:9 and 1Chronicles 21:5. We will see that with a simple reading and study of the two verses.

2Samuel 24:9 (NRSV)
Joab reported to the king the number of those who had been recorded: in Israel there were eight hundred thousand soldiers able to draw the sword, and those of Judah were five hundred thousand.

1Chronicles 21:5 (NRSV)
Joab gave the total count of the people to David. In all Israel there were one million one hundred thousand men who drew the sword, and in Judah four hundred seventy thousand who drew the sword.

A careful reading of the two verses will show CLEAR DIFFERENCES in WHO WERE COUNTED.

In 2Sam 24:9, we can see that the 800,000 counted were "SOLDIERS." In Hebrew, the word used was "IS HA-YIL," which refers to members of the ARMY or as SOLDIERS.


Now, WHO WERE the ONE MILLION (1,000,000) COUNTED or REFERRED TO in 1Chr 21:5? Were they also "SOLDIERS"?


NO.


1Chronicles 21:5 REFERRED to MEN "IN ALL ISRAEL" "WHO DREW THE SWORD." Meaning, the 1,000,000 did not only include SOLDIERS but even those who were NOT SOLDIERS--ALL MEN who COULD USE a SWORD.


So, that clearly explains the difference between the NUMBERS given by 2Sam 24:9 and 1Chr 21:5.


2Sam 24:9 = 800,000 SOLDIERS
1Chr 21:5 = 800,000 SOLDIERS + 200,000 NON-SOLDIERS




In short, CLEARLY THERE ARE NO CONTRADICTIONS BETWEEN 2Sam 24:9 and 1Chr 21:5.


If only MUSLIM DETRACTORS would study the verses well--and IF ONLY THEY STUDY ALL the SUPPOSED CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE--THEY WILL SEE that THERE ARE REALLY NO CONTRADICTIONS.

We pray and hope that MUSLIM DETRACTORS would LOOK FOR the TRUTH and NOT LOOK for WAY to DISTORT WHAT is TRUE.


SALAMAT po.

2Sam 24:1 vs 1Chr 21:1?

ILABAS po natin ang sagot natin sa PAG-ATAKE ng isang BALIK ISLAM sa BIBLIYA at sa ating mga KRISTIYANO.

Pilit pong pinalalabas ni Ansary Abdulaziz na mayroon daw "salungatan" sa Bibliya.

Matagal na po nating NAPATUNAYAN at NAIPAKITA na WALANG KONTRADIKSYON sa BIBLIYA. Ang KONTRADIKSYON po ay NASA ISIP lang ng nagsasabi na may salungatan sa Banal na Kasulatan. HINDI po kasi sila MARUNONG MAGBASA ng BIBLIYA.

Akala po nila ay ganun-ganon lang ang pagbabasa ng Kasulatan. May tama pong paraan sa pag-unawa sa sinasabi ng kahit na anong TEKSTO.

Para po TAMA ang MAKUHANG KAHULUGAN sa TALATA ay may mga GUIDELINE na dapat sundin.

Ang mga alituntunin na iyan ang ginagamit sa EXEGESIS o ang PAGKUHA ng KAHULUGAN MULA sa MISMONG TALATA.

Sa EXEGESIS po ang KAHULUGAN ay GALING sa KONTEKSTO at KAHULUGAN ng mga SALITA sa TALATA.

Ang KABALIKTARAN po niyan ay ang EISEGESIS o ang PAGLALAGAY ng tao ng SARILI NIYANG UNAWA sa TALATA.

Iyan po ang ginagawa ni Abdulziz kaya sinasabi niya na may "kontra-kontra" sa Bible.

Tinitingnan lang niya ang mga salita at INILAGAY NIYA ang PANSARILI niyang UNAWA sa talata. Halimbawa po sa mga salinglahi ni Hesus.

Ngayon ay may isa na naman siyang sinasabi.

Sabi niya, "2 Samuel 24:1 at 1Cronica 21:1. Ang Panginoon ni David, kung gayon, ay si Satanas?"

Muli ay SORRY dahil MALI na naman ang UNAWA ni Abdulaziz sa sinasabi ng mga talata.

Para po maunawaan natin iyan ay basahin natin ang 2 Sam 24:1 at 2 Chr 21:1.

Sabi sa 2Sam 24:1, "Muli ang galit ng PANGINOON ay nag-alab laban sa Israel, at KANYANG IKINILOS si David laban sa kanila ..."

Sabi naman sa 1Chr 21:1, "Tumayo si SATANAS, at kinilos si David ..."

Malamang ang nasa isip ni Abdulaziz, "Ayan! Hindi ba magkakontra? Ang sabi sa 2 Sam 24:1 ay ang PANGINOON ang NAGKILOS. Sa 1 Chr 21:1 ay si SATANAS na."

Kaya nga nasabi rin niya, "Ang Panginoon ni David, kung gayon, ay si Satanas?"

MALI po ang UNAWA ni Abdulziz. HINDI niya KINUHA ang KONTEKSTO ng dalawang talata bago siya NAGSALITA.

MAGKAIBA ang SUMULAT sa 2Samuel at 1Chronicles at MAGKAIBA ang POINT OF VIEW ng mga NAGSULAT.

Ang PUNTO DE VISTA sa 2SAMUEL ay HISTORICAL. Ang layunin ng sumulat ay IULAT ang KATOTOHANAN na lahat ng bagay ay NANGYAYARI dahil HINAYAAN ng DIYOS.

Sa kabilang dako, ang NAGSULAT ng 2CHRONICLES ay PARI o RELIGIOUS LEADER. Kaya ang PUNTO DE VISTA niya ay sa isang BELIEVER o MANANAMPALATAYA.

Sa mata ng HISTORICAL WRITER sa 2Samuel DIYOS ang AKTUWAL na NAGKILOS kay DAVID.

Alam niya na WALANG BAGAY na NANGYAYARI na HINDI NILOOB ng DIYOS. Iyan ay FACTUAL na BAGAY.

Sa pagsulat ng RELIGIOUS WRITER ng 1Chronicles ay TINUKOY niya si SATANAS dahil iyon talaga ang gawain ni SATANAS.

Sa Job 1:6-12 ay mababasa natin kung paano kumikilos si Satanas.

Diyan ay hiniling ni Satanas na SUBUKIN si Job na TAPAT na LINGKOD ng Diyos.

PUMAYAG ang Diyos na SUBUKIN ni Satanas si Job at iyon ang nangyari.

Diyos ang NAGSABI ng "SIGE" pero si SATANAS ang KUMILOS.

Kung babalikan natin ang 2Sam 24:1, sinasabi roon na nagalit ang Diyos at sinabi na Siya ang "nagkilos" kay David.

Iyan ang sinabi sa 2Samuel dahil walang bagay na mangyayari kung hindi gustuhin ng Diyos.

Sa kaso pa ni Job ay ang DIYOS ang sinasabi niyang "gumawa" ng pagsubok sa kanya.

Sinabi ni Job sa Job 1:21, "Hubad akong naluwal mula sa tiyan ng aking ina at hubad din akong aalis.

Ang Diyos ay nagbigay at ANG DIYOS AY KUMUHA; purihin nawa ang ngalan ng PANGINOON."

Paki pansin po na SI SATANAS TALAGA ang KUMILOS para SUBUKIN si Job, pero ang DIYOS o ang PANGINOON ang sinasabi ni Job na KUMUHA sa mga ibinigay sa kanya.

Ganoon din yan sa 2Sam 24:1 at 1Chr 21:1 kaya WALANG KONTRA-KONTRA riyan.

HINDI lang NAIINTINDIHAN ni Abdulaziz ang binabasa niya.

DEBATE: Bible or Quran? Which is the Word of God?

THE FOLLOWING is the debate that I had with a Muslim who used the pseudonym "Alyas Pogi." This debate was done at the Islamic Facebook account with the name "Interfaith Corner."

+++ +++ +++ +++ +++ +++

Topic: Exclusive: Cenon Bibe Vs. Alyas Pogi Debate

Reply to Topic

Displaying all 26 posts.

Interfaith Corner

I am admin-4

I am designated by Admin-1 to moderate this debate since Admin-2 is not available.


Since there is no format and rules suggested by both sides, I will use the same rules and format used by Admin-1 in Cenon vs Whitejewel debate.


The Topic of the Debate:


The Bible Or The Qur'an Which Is Pure Word Of God?



Representing Catholicism: Cenon Bibe

Representing Islam: Alyas Pogil




The debate FORMAT:


1. Opening Presentation by Cenon Bibe - 1,500 words maximum

2. Opening Presentation by Alyas Pogi - 1,500 words maximum

3. Cross-Examination by Cenon Bible for Alyas Pogi - 7 questions only, 500 words maximum

4. Cross-Examination by Alyas for Cenon Bible - 7 questions only, 500 words maximum

5. First Rebuttal by Cenon Bibe - 1,500 words maximum

6. First Rebuttal by Alyas Pogi - 1,500 words maximum

7. Second Rebuttal by Cenon Bibe - 1,500 words maximum

8. Second Rebuttal by Alyas Pogi - 1,500 words maximum

9. Third Rebuttal by Cenon Bibe - 1,500 words maximum

10. Third Rebuttal by Alyas Pogi - 1,500 words maximum

11. Conclusion by Cenon Bible - 1,500 words maximum

12. Conclusion by Alyas Pogi - 1,500 words maximum.



Note:
a. Each item/post should be a maximum of 1,500 words EXCEPT where they are specifically indicated in the format itself. So the question post has only 500 words max.


RULES:


These rules supersedes all previous agreements or understandings in pre-debate threads. Kindly review the rules carefully as these rules will prevail over others that you may have used in the past.

Start date: This debate starts at the moment that this post has been posted. The affirmative side is given two days to make his first posting.

This is the exclusive thread to the parties of this debate. The format and the debate rules are shown. Where the rules are explicit, I will apply the rules to specific situations. Where the rules are silent or implicit, I will extrapolate the applicable rules based on my interpretation of fairness and standard practice.


Behavioral Rules (numbered for easy reference.)

1. Constructive posts must be used by each side to present the arguments.

2. Cross-examination posts must be limited only to the constructive posts of the other side.

3. The debater being cross-examined is expected to answer the questions directly.

4. During the rebuttal posts, no significantly new issues may be presented.

5. Maximum Word Count limit for each post is 1,500 words EXCEPT when the maximum is specified different for specific items in the FORMAT. Questions are part of the word count. Clarifications are part of the word count. Clarifications may be requested but no expectation is to be made that it will be addressed. Citations are part of the word count. These will also be part of the word count.

6. Time limit is 2 days (48 hours) from the last post by the opponent.

7. All applicable forum rules on posting behavior will apply in this debate.

8. Debaters should not extend their debate in the peanut gallery. They are not allowed to post in the gallery that will further support their argument, rally their supporters, and criticize the opponent during the duration of the debate. In other words, there is only one debate -- and it is in the main thread. The debate rules behavior applies in the gallery as well. I will exercise moderator rights in the gallery.


Failure to follow the rules without valid reason will be declared defeated.





Note:

EACH DEBATE CAN AUTOMATICALLY POST THEIR REPLIES BASED ON THE FORMAT EVEN WITHOUT MY GO SIGNAL.

THE MODERATOR WILL ONLY INTERVENE WHEN ANY OF THE RULES OR THE DEBATE FORMAT IS VIOLATED.


We are now waiting for Cenon Bibe's opening presentation.


Thank you.


Admin-4

about 3 months ago · Report

Cenon Bibe

GLORY TO THE ONE TRUE GOD, THE HOLY TRINITY: The FATHER, The SON, and The HOLY SPIRIT.



I praise and thank God for this opportunity to raise the Bible, the ONE TRUE PURE WORD OF GOD.

The topic is “The Bible Or The Qur'an, Which Is Pure Word Of God?”

Based on the proposition, what we are looking for is THE WORD OF GOD.

That means I should PROVE that the BIBLE is:

1. The ONE SPOKEN BY GOD HIMSELF, and that
2. GOD HIMSELF IS ITS AUTHOR.


In the same way, ALYAS POGI should PROVE that the WORDS in the QUR’AN are:

1. WORDS SPOKEN or REVEALED by GOD HIMSELF, and that
2. GOD HIMSELF AUTHORED the WORDS in the QUR’AN.


FAILURE to PROVE that GOD HIMSELF SPOKE the VERY WORDS in the BIBLE or in the QUR’AN would AUTOMATICALLY mean that IT IS NOT THE PURE WORD OF GOD.

Also, FAILURE to PROVE that GOD HIMSELF is the AUTHOR of the BIBLE or the QUR’AN CLEARLY means that IT is NOT GOD’S WORD.




THE BIBLE: THE ONE TRUE PURE WORD OF GOD

It is EASY to PROVE that the BIBLE is THE WORD OF GOD.

Firstly, the WORDS of the BIBLE are WORDS SPOKEN by GOD HIMSELF either

• DIRECTLY to WITNESSES who HEARD HIM SPEAK
• Or through HUMAN AUTHORS/WRITERS who were GUIDED by HIS HOLY SPIRIT.


Secondly, GOD was the ONE who DIRECTED ITS CONTENTS FROM the VERY FIRST WORD in GENESIS to the LAST WORD in REVELATIONS.

This is shown by the CONSISTENCY of the MESSAGE in the OLD TESTAMENT and the NEW TESTAMENT as GOD’S REVELATION PROGRESSED THROUGH the AGES.

And the ONE CENTRAL MESSAGE of the BIBLE is GOD’S SALVATION as PROMISED in the OLD TESTAMENT and as FULFILLED in JESUS CHRIST in the NEW TESTAMENT.





THE HOLY TRINITY AND THE ONE WORD OF GOD

To best understand how GOD HIMSELF SPOKE in the BIBLE, we should understand the HOLY TRINITY, the ONE TRUE GOD with THREE DIVINE PERSONS.




WATER: AN ANALOGY

In my debate with WHITE JEWEL, I used the ANALOGY of WATER which RETAINS its ONE SAME SUBSTANCE, ESSENCE and NATURE even when it is in a SPRING, PUT IN A GLASS, or DRANK.

Simply stated, the WATER in the SPRING is the VERY SAME WATER when put in a GLASS and is the VERY SAME WATER when TAKEN IN. Thus, when ONE is REFRESHED, the WATER that REFRESHES is NOT ONLY THAT which he DRANK, but the SAME WATER that is IN THE GLASS and the SAME ONE that is in the SPRING.

The ACT of ONE (BODY) of WATER is the ACT of ALL.




LIGHT: ANOTHER ANALOGY

Now, I will use the ANALOGY of LIGHT, specifically that from the SUN.

The SUN has LIGHT.
From the LIGHT of the SUN comes LIGHT that is VISIBLE AROUND US.
From the LIGHT AROUND US is LIGHT that ENTERS our EYES and ILLUMINATES us within.

So, we see THREE LIGHTS:
• One LIGHT that is on the SUN itself,
• ONE LIGHT that is shining AROUND US, and
• ONE LIGHT that ENTERS our EYES.

Amid that fact, there is actually ONLY ONE and the SAME LIGHT: The LIGHT that is on the SUN is the VERY SAME LIGHT that is SHINING AROUND US and the VERY SAME LIGHT that ENTERS our EYES.

Thus, the “ACTION” of the LIGHT that ENTERS our EYES to ENLIGHTEN US is the ACTION of the LIGHT AROUND US and is the ACTION of the LIGHT that is ON the SUN.

The ACTION of ONE LIGHT is the ACTION of the TWO OTHERS, because THEY are ONE and the SAME LIGHT.





THE BIBLE: ONE TRUE PURE WORD OF GOD

That is HOW we understand the ACTION of the HOLY TRINITY, specifically in relation to GOD’S AUTHORSHIP of the BIBLE.

GOD the FATHER is GOD.
• Matthew 6:9-OUR FATHER in HEAVEN...

From GOD the FATHER came GOD the SON.
• John 16:27-28…Jesus said: I came from GOD…I came from the FATHER...

From GOD the FATHER and GOD the SON comes forth GOD the HOLY SPIRIT.
• John 15:26-“Advocate… whom I WILL SEND...the Spirit of truth who GOES OUT FROM THE FATHER

The FATHER, The SON, and The HOLY SPIRIT are the ONE and the SAME GOD and their ACTIONS are ONE.



So, when the SON OF GOD became MAN and SPOKE, what was HEARD was NOT ONLY HIS WORDS but the WORDS of GOD the FATHER HIMSELF
• John 14:24-These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me

The WORDS TOLD to MEN by the HOLY SPIRIT are the VERY WORDS of GOD:
• Acts 4:25-You (SOVEREIGN LORD) SPOKE by the HOLY SPIRIT through the mouth of your servant


That is why, the WORDS of JESUS as QUOTED in the GOSPELS are the VERY WORDS of GOD.
• John 14:24-These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me

Also, the WORDS WRITTEN or SPOKEN by those GUIDED by the HOLY SPIRIT are also the VERY WORDS of GOD.
• 2 Peter 1:21-For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, SPOKE FROM GOD as they were CARRIED ALONG BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.
• Acts 4:31-they were all FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and SPOKE THE WORD OF GOD boldly.

The GUIDANCE by the HOLY SPIRIT to the HUMAN AUTHORS of the BIBLE is the reason why it is said in 2Timothy 3:16:
• “All Scripture is GOD-BREATHED”






GOD HIMSELF SPOKE TO HIS PEOPLE

Even in OLD TESTAMENT times, GOD HIMSELF SPOKE or TALKED DIRECTLY to HIS PEOPLE and to TRUE PROPHETS.

• Genesis 1:28-30, GOD HIMSELF TOLD the first man and woman to be fruitful and to subdue the earth.
• Gen 6:13-21, GOD HIMSELF COMMANDED NOAH to build an ark
• Gen 17, GOD TALKED DIRECTLY to ABRAHAM
• Gen 35:10, GOD DIRECTLY TOLD JACOB that his name would already be ISRAEL
• Exodus 3:4-21, GOD TALKED DIRECTLY to MOSES
• And the LIST GOES ON


These people whom GOD TALKED TO DIRECTLY were the VERY SOURCES of the WORDS that have been WRITTEN in the BIBLE.

In short, THESE are WITNESSES to GOD’S VERY WORDS and the WORDS that GOD SPOKE to THEM are WRITTEN NOW in the BIBLE.





And as I already indicated ABOVE, when the FULLNESS of TIME CAME, it was GOD HIMSELF in the PERSON of JESUS CHRIST who BECAME MAN and SPOKE DIRECTLY to ALL HIS PEOPLE.

And those are the reasons why the BIBLE is the TRUE PURE WORD of GOD.

NO OTHER believers in other “scriptures” can make that CLAIM, especially MUSLIMS.






MUSLIM DEBUNKS QUR’AN

WHEN I debated with WHITE JEWEL about which is the TRUE RELIGION OF GOD FOR MANKIND, one of the things we talked about was the ORIGINS of the REVELATIONS in the QUR’AN.

In his statements, WHITE JEWEL NEVER PROVED that THE WORDS in the QUR’AN were SPOKEN DIRECTLY by GOD to their PROPHET.

On the contrary, the MUSLIM DEBATER HIMSELF PROVED that the QUR’AN CANNOT be CALLED the WORD OF GOD because (as WHITE JEWEL said) NO ONE EVER HEARD GOD SPEAK.

As it turned out, what WHITE JEWEL was saying was NO ONE IN ISLAM EVER HEARD GOD SPEAK. He ADMITTED that GOD SPOKE to PEOPLE in the BIBLE.

That means, the PROPHET of ISLAM (who “received” the revelations of God) NEVER HEARD of GOD speak and was NEVER SPOKEN TO by God.

So, WHITE JEWEL unwittingly ADMITTED and DECLARED that NOT A WORD in the QUR’AN CAME FROM GOD HIMSELF.

And if NOT ONE WORD in the QUR’AN was SPOKEN by GOD HIMSELF, NOT ONE WORD in the QUR’AN can be called WORD OF GOD.

And since, NOT A WORD in the QUR’AN can be called WORD OF GOD, it is a natural conclusion that the QUR’AN CANNOT BE CONSIDERED the WORD OF GOD, much less called pure word of God.





What is SAD is that WHITE JEWEL even FAILED to PROVE that the “revelations” in the QUR’AN were SPOKEN by an “angel.”

The MUSLIM DEBATER FAILED to PRESENT ONE WITNESS who HEARD or SAW an “angel” REVEAL the QUR’AN to their PROPHET.

He mentioned the SAHABAH and HADITH JIBREEL but NONE OF THESE SAW or HEARD their PROPHET RECEIVE any REVELATION from GOD or an “angel.”

The SAHABAH purportedly SAW and HEARD the “angel” GIVE their PROPHET a QUIZ, but NO REVELATION.

In short, WHITE JEWEL FAILED to SHOW that the QUR’AN had any DIVINE SOURCE and thus IT CANNOT BE CALLED “WORD of GOD.”





So, it EXCITES ME to know HOW ALYAS POGI will ACHIEVE what WHITE JEWEL FAILED to DO.

Will ALYAS POGI PRESENT a WITNESS who HEARD or SAW GOD or an “angel” REVEAL the QUR’AN?

Or will he, like WHITE JEWEL, just MAKE BASELESS CLAIMS that the QUR’AN is the “WORD OF GOD”?




TO GOD BE THE GLORY!

about 3 months ago · Delete Post

Interfaith Corner

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Alyas Pogi's duration: on or before 11:17 AM KSA time MArch 5, 2011


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Alyas Pogi

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem



I testify that there’s no God worthy to be worshipped except Allah and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger



Peace be upon you all.

The topic for this debate is which is the pure word of God, the Bible or the Quran?


When we say PURE WORD OF GOD, what do we mean by that? We mean what it means – PURE means unadulterated, unmixed with words of anyone other than God, authentic and written by known people, and free of errors factually and textually.

Let’s not put the Quran in trial; will it pass on the above-mentioned criteria?

1. Is it unadulterated?

The answer is yes!

Though the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad through Archangel Gabriel, not a single word of Archangel Gabriel or Prophet Muhammad is mixed in it. All the words in the Quran is 100% word of God. Prophet Muhammad, and Archangel Gabriel were merely CONDUITS of it; they were just tools used by God in order to have His words heard in its purest form and be understood by the people.
Example:
When the first revelation came to Prophet Muhammad, Surah 96:1-5, Prophet Muhammad was instructed to recite “Iqra”; Prophet Muhammad replied “Ana ma bi qari” and this was repeated thrice.

The word “Iqra” was the direct word of God, while the statement “Ana ma bi qari” was the word of Prophet Muhammad. Guess what, if you read Surah 96:1-5 it goes like this:

Iqra bismirabbika alladhi khalaq
Khalaqal insana min alaq
Iqra wa rabbukal akram
Alladhi ‘alama bil qalam
‘Alamal insana malam ya’lam

Question:
Where is the statement of Prophet Muhammad “Ana ma bi qari”?? Why is it that it’s not part of it?

Answer:
It is because “Ana ma bi qari” is not God’s word but Prophet Muhammad’s word that is why it is not included in the recitation or in the text.
What is left to be recited and written therefore is only the word of God and nothing else.



2. Was the Quran revealed by God?

Yes!
God said:
Verily I revealed the Dhikr (Qur’an) and verily I will preserve It 15:9. It is also confirmed by many verses such as, 57;9 3;62 14;52

[This is] the revelation of the Book about which there is no doubt from the Lord of the worlds. 32:2
The revelation of the Book is from God (Allah), the Exalted in Might, the Wise. 45:2




3. Acid Test for and by the Quran

Now God has put a challenge for those who would think that the Quran is not from God:
And if you are in doubt about what We have sent down upon Our Servant [Muhammad], then produce a surah the like thereof and call upon your witnesses other than Allah, if you should be truthful. 2:23
1,432 years had passed; no one was able to produce a single surah, let alone a book like the Quran. This is one of the strongest proofs that the Quran CAN’T be made by anyone other than God. And this challenge of God is still verifiable by anyone until now.



4. The Quran is preserved in its original language

The Quran was revealed in Arabic language (43:3 86:13, 20;113, 26:195) and it is preserved in pure Arabic in its recitation and in the text, therefore it is preserved in its purity the way it was revealed. All codices written in English are not called Quran but merely translations of the meanings of the Quran.

• Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand. 43:3

• Indeed, the Qur'an is a decisive statement 86:13

• And thus We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an and have diversified therein the warnings that perhaps they will avoid [sin] or it would cause them remembrance. 20:113



5. The Quran was memorized and codified by the disciples of Prophet Muhammad himself



The Quran also was memorized and written directly by the disciples of Prophet Muhammad, so we are 100% sure that it is free from any sort of corruption, up to its compilation and codification. Zayd, one of the head scribes of Prophet Muhammad was the one commissioned by the leaders of the disciples Abu Bakr to collect all the written copies of other scribes so that it would be codified as one book called Mushaf al Quran. After that, it was copied, reproduced and distributed throughout the world by another disciple named Uthman bin Affan, this is how the Quran reached to us today.

Therefore it is 100% authentic.




6. The Quran has no errors


(Afala yatadabbaroona alqur-anawalaw kana min AAindi ghayri Allahi lawajadoo feehiikhtilafan katheeran)

Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy. 4:82

There are many alleged errors in the Quran but after scrutiny, the error is not in the Quran but the understanding of those ignorant about the Quran.




Now, in contrast, I would challenge my opponent to produce to me the following:


1. That God called/named His Word as Bible
2. That the writers of the Bible are known people not unknown
3. That the bible was written by eye-witnesses
4. That the bible is not mixed with words by anyone other than God
5. That the bible has no errors


If my opponent can’t show me the above-mentioned points, there would be NO REASON to believe that the bible is PURE WORD OF GOD.

My opponent explained the trinity which is irrelevant to this debate - very funny.

Later I will ask him whether the word trinity is written in his bible - that would be his biggest problem.





Thank you very Much.


AP

about 3 months ago · Report

Interfaith Corner

Last post 917 words at 5:10 PM KSA time March 4, 2011

Cenon Bibe is expected to post on or before 5:10 PM (10:10 PM in Philippines) March 6 2011.



Thanks.



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about 3 months ago · Report

Cenon Bibe

ALL GLORY AND HONOR TO THE ONE TRUE GOD, THE HOLY TRINITY: The FATHER, and The SON, and The HOLY SPIRIT.

I wish to thank Alyas Pogi (AP) for his efforts at trying to show that the Qur’an is God’s “pure word.”

Now, to my questions.

1. You said, AP, that “that Muhammad is [God’s] slave and Messenger.”
Did GOD HIMSELF talk to you prophet and TOLD HIM PERSONALLY that he was choosing him to be “His slave” and His “Messenger”? If “YES,” please tell us WHEN, WHERE, and HOW did GOD PERSONALLY TALK to your PROPHET and APPOINT HIM as a PROPHET and MESSENGER?


2. Thank you for ADMITTING that “the Quran was revealed to Prophet Muhammad through Archangel Gabriel.” That CONFIRMS the FACT that GOD HIMSELF DID NOT REVEAL the QUR’AN to your PROPHET. And by that, you have already SERIOUSLY PUT IN DOUBT the claim that the QUR’AN is the “PURE WORD OF GOD.”
Anyway, I will still pursue your claims and ask this question:

DID ANYONE SEE or HEAR the “Archangel Gabriel” reveal the Qur’an to your prophet? If “YES,” please TELL US WHO SAW or HEARD the “angel” make the revelation and WHAT DID THE WITNESS HEAR that was INCLUDED IN THE QUR’AN.

3. You said, “not a single word of Archangel Gabriel or Prophet Muhammad is mixed in it. All the words in the Quran is 100% word of God.” For us to believe that statement, we should produce a WITNESS who SHOULD have HEARD GOD HIMSELF SPEAK and COMPARE GOD’S ACTUAL WORDS with what was WRITTEN in the QUR’AN.
So, my question is:
Did anyone ACTUALLY HEAR GOD SPEAK and WAS ABLE TO COMPARE GOD’S ACTUAL WORDS with the WORDS in the QUR’AN? If there was any, WHO WERE THE HEARERS of GOD’S ACTUAL WORDS and HOW WERE THEY ABLE to CONFIRM that NOTHING WAS ADDED in the QUR’AN?


4. You said that GOD REVEALED the QUR’AN. That statement CLEARLY CONTRADICTS your ADMISSION that it was the “Archangel Gabriel” and NOT GOD who revealed the QUR’AN. Nonetheless, for the sake of argument I will ask you this:

WHEN and HOW DID GOD HIMSELF REVEAL THE QUR’AN TO YOUR PROPHET, if indeed He did?

5. You said that the Qur’an was 100% pure when it was memorized and codified by the companions of your prophet.
By 100% “PURE,” should it follow that there are 100% NO DIFFERENCES in the WAY the QUR’AN was MEMORIZED and CODIFIED by your prophet’s companions? DIFFERENCES MEAN IMPURITY.

6. You said that there are no errors in the Qur’an.
In S20:85, 87 and 95, the SAMIRI (SAMARITAN) is said to have made the GOLDEN CALF. HOW could that be when there were still NO SAMARITANS at that time? They appeared only HUNDREDS OF YEARS LATER. Please explain.


7. IF I PRODUCE a SIMILAR SURAH (2:23) WOULD THAT NEGATE the QUR’AN and WOULD YOU ACCEPT THAT IT IS NEGATED? YES OR NO?

Thank you.

about 3 months ago · Delete Post

Alyas Pogi

Bismillah!

I thank God almighty that my opponent defeats his own self in this debate of mine.
His question number 1 is destroyed by his other questions. He is asking whether God directly spoke to Prophet Muhammad yet he admitted that he understood that the Quran was revealed through Angel Gabriel in his question number 2, so his question number 1 and 3 are NONSENSE!


Further, my opponent is so ignorant of the meaning of revelation. He seems to think that revelation is equal to face to face talking with each other. Revelation is in Hebrew word (galah) and the Greek (apokalupto - from which we get Apocalyptic) basically mean “to disclose," "strip away." - Revelation therefore is not necessarily talking face to face with God.

This is very shameful for him yet funny for me.



1. Did God talk to Prophet Muhammad? YES! When? When he was 40 years old and onwards. Where? In Jabalun-Nur in Makkah. How? Through God’s revelation. Did God appoint Prophet Muhammad as Prophet? Yes! Evidence? Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (3:31) Whoso obeyeth the Messenger (Muhammad) hath obeyed Allah, and whoso turneth away: We have not sent thee as a warder over them. (4:80) Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah , of all things, Knowing.(33:40)



2. What? Did anybody hear the revelation? Watta joke! Read the meaning of revelation above Cenon, don’t be dumb – Divine Revelation is not done through shouting so that all people should hear it but it is done in private with the prophet to whom the revelation is given. Example: Did anyone hear Moses’ conversation with God on Mount Sinai? No of course! But why is it that it is written in your bible? Your own bible has a book called the revelation which were written by people who didn’t see God nor any angel, talking about stuff in the future, is that book false because nobody heard and see God or any angel talking with the writers of the book of revelation? – You think your silly questions will work, but what you did is showing your ignorance about theology and you just shot your own foot so to speak. Was Angel Gabriel seen by the people? Yes! It is narrated by the most authentic book of hadith, sahih bukhari and sahih muslim known as the hadith of Jibril.


3. Did anyone hear God speak? Very funny because that presupposes that anyone could hear God speaking – that is an extremely ridiculous idea because humans that could hear God speaking are the Prophets not anyone – so where did you get your silly idea requiring someone to have heard God speaking in order to compare God’s word with the Quran? – you are very funny indeed! You believe that the bible is the word of God. Luke is one of the books of the bible – did Luke see or hear God’s voice, and did anyone hear God’s voice to compare it with Luke? – you shot your own foot again. Now, did Prophet Muhammad hear God’s voice? Absolutely Yes! Through revelation and when he went to heaven during the mi’raj. The point is, if you don’t believe that the Quran is the word of God, then bring a book like it; nsurpassed literary style, powerful meanings, no unfulfilled prophecies, inimitable and is memorized by millions of people.



4. You are twisting my words. I did not say that the Quran was revealed by Angel Gabriel. What I said was the Quran was revealed by God through Angel Gabriel – I really doubt if you can understand simple English my friend – if you cant understand simple English, we can debate in tagalog if you like. How did God reveal the Quran? It was through Angel Gabriel – take note of the word THROUGH –


5. You are wrong due to lack of knowledge. The Quran was revealed in 7 HURUF, so the Quran can be recited in any of the 7 HURUF. The main harf is the Qurayshi accent because the dialect of prophet Muhammad is Quraysh so the disciples codified and standardize the Qurayshi way of reading, however, if you read the Quran through the other 6 HURUF and any of the famous QIRAAT, there is no problem in it because their meanings don’t change a bit.



6. You are very funny. You just copied the false attack of the evangelist. The Quran doesn’t say Samaritan. What it says is AL SAMIRI – the name of the person who misled the people while Moses was away:


* تفسير Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs


{ قَالَ فَإِنَّا قَدْ فَتَنَّا قَوْمَكَ مِن بَعْدِكَ وَأَضَلَّهُمُ ٱلسَّامِرِيُّ }
(He said) O Moses! (Lo! We have tried thy folk) with the worship of the calf (in thine absence) after you set off for the mountain, (and al-Samiri hath misled them) al-Samiri commanded them to do so.

Read the tafseer properly instead of copying from anti-islamic webs

Here is the link for you:

http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=20&tAyahNo=85&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2



7. Yes, I will. Produce a single surah like the Quran which is written a language in which the style is unsurpassed certified by the masters of the language, neither poetry nor prose and it is inimitable.

Here is an example for you, try to produce a surah like this talking about what God is:


Qul Huwallahu ahad
Allahu Samad
Lamyalid wa lamyulad
Wa lamyakullahu kufwan ahad

Translation:

Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
He neither begets nor is born,
Nor is there to Him any equivalent."



If you can bring a surah like it, I will declare you as the winner in this debate.


Thanks


AP

about 3 months ago · Report

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Last Post at 11 PM KSA time March 4, 2011. - 975 words.

Alyas Pogi, it is your time to cross-examin Cenon Bibe


Post your questions on or before 11PM March 6, 2011.



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about 3 months ago · Report

Alyas Pogi

Here are my questions for you Cenon:

1. Did God say that His word is called the Bible? Yes or No?

2. Who wrote the books of Judges, Chronicles, Hebrews and Kings? You did not answer this question of WhiteJewel, you just simply said God is the author – I hope you will not do the same – ARE THE WRITER OF THOSE BOOKS KNOWN? IF YES, WHO ARE THEY?



3. What was the language of Jesus?


4. Were Luke, and Mark eyewitnesses of Jesus?


5. In what Language did the New Testament originally written?

6. Do you consider this PORNGRAPHY as word of God in the bible?

18“In the same way, I became disgusted with Oholibah and rejected her, just as I had rejected her sister, because she flaunted herself before them and gave herself to satisfy their lusts. 19Yet she turned to even greater prostitution, remembering her youth when she was a prostitute in Egypt. 20She lusted after lovers with GENITALS (PENIS) AS LARGE AS A DONKEY'S AND EMISSIONS (SEMEN) LIKE THOSE OF HORSE . 21And so, Oholibah, you relived your former days as a young girl in Egypt, when you first allowed your breasts to be fondled.


I THINK THAT IT IS A HARD CORE PLAYBOY MAGAZINE.


7. How would you explain the contradictions and inconsistencies in the different account of the bible?


Example: The resurrection account

• Was it still dark out? (Yes: John 20:1) (No: Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2).

• Did Mary Magdalene tell any men about the tomb? (Yes: Mt 28:8; Lu 24:9-10; John 20:2) (No: Mk 16:8).


• Did she go back to the tomb with any of them? (Yes: John 20:2-11) (No: Mt 28:1-10,16; Mk 16:8-14; Lu 24:9-12).

• Was there just one angel at Jesus's tomb? (Yes: Mt 28:2-5; Mk 16:5-6) (No, there were two: Lu 24:4-5; John 20:11-13).


• Were the angels inside the tomb? (Yes: Mk 16:5; John 20:11-12) (No, the one angel was outside: Mt 28:2).

• Were there guards at the tomb? (Yes: Mt 27:62-66, 28:2-4,11-15) (No: Mk 15:44-16:10; Lu 23:50-24:12; John 19:38-20:12).


• Did the angel(s) look like lightning? (Yes: Mt 28:2-4) (No, humanlike: Mk 16:5; Lu 24:4).

• Did the angel(s) get to the tomb first? (Yes: Mk 16:5) (No: Lu 24:2-4; John 20:1-12).


• Did Peter go alone? (Yes: Lu 24:12) (No: John 20:2-6).



Thanks.



AP

about 3 months ago · Report

Interfaith Corner

The progress of the debate is getting faster!


Lats post 10AM KSA time. March 5, 2011


Cenon Bibe is expected to post his replies on or before 10AM ( 3PM Philippine time) March 7, 2011.



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about 3 months ago · Report

Cenon Bibe

PRAISE be to the ONE TRUE GOD, the HOLY TRINITY: The LIGHT of the WORLD.


I give my answers to the MUSLIM DEBATER'S QUESTIONS.


1. No, GOD DID NOT NEED to give any name to HIS WORD. That is why the BIBLE is simply THE WORD OF GOD.

ONLY INVENTORS GIVE NAMES to their WORKS to put “CREDIBILITY” to their INVENTION. The BIBLE is NOT an INVENTION so GOD DID NOT NEED TO GIVE IT A NAME.

We call it BIBLE to refer to it as the COLLECTION of WORDS that GOD SPOKE to TRUE PROPHETS and TO HIS PEOPLE. THERE IS NO OTHER BOOK in the WORLD that CONTAINS the TRUE and PURE WORD of GOD.



2. I have already responded to this question but the MUSLIM DEBATER DID NOT UNDERSTAND my answer. HIS BIASES perhaps are CLOUDING HIS UNDERSTANDING.

First, the AUTHORS of Judges, Chronicles, Kings and Hebrews are KNOWN. They are the PEOPLE of GOD.

To MAKE IT CLEARER, let us first DEFINE what AUTHOR means.

ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA defines AUTHOR as:
one who is the SOURCE of some form of intellectual or creative work. (TAKE NOTE, it does not refer to the mere WRITER)

As I already told White Jewel, the ULTIMATE AUTHOR of the Bible, which includes the ones mentioned by the MUSLIM DEBATER is GOD.

GOD is the SOURCE of this work because the BIBLE is HIS WORD.



JUDGES, CHRONICLES, KINGS and HEBREWS are about the HISTORY of the PEOPLE OF GOD.

Who then are the SOURCES of this HISTORY?

The PEOPLE of GOD… the Israelites for Judges, Chronicles and Kings, and CHRISTIANS for Hebrews.

So, based on the DEFINITION of AUTHOR, the PEOPLE OF GOD (Israelites/Christians) are the AUTHORS of these books.


Now, the MUSLIM DEBATER will insist on the HUMAN WRITERS of these books, as if these are VITAL to the NATURE of these books as THE WORD OF GOD.

Simply put, the WRITERS (the ones who ACTUALLY DID THE WRITING) are NOT as IMPORTANT as the AUTHORS of the books.

If the WRITERS are MORE IMPORTANT for the MUSLIM DEBATER, then he would be admitting that the QUR’AN is MAN-MADE because ONLY MEN WROTE THE WORDS in the QUR’AN.

Now, I WOULD LIKE the MUSLIM DEBATER to INSIST on the HUMAN AUTHORS of such works so that HE WILL PROVE that THE QUR’AN is MERELY an INVENTION of THE FIRST MUSLIMS and NOT the WORD of GOD.




3. Jesus spoke several languages (He is GOD so HE KNOWS ALL LANGUAGES).

But for the sake of this debate, we will identify three:

He spoke HEBREW, which is the mother tongue of the HEBREW PEOPLE. Proof of this is HE KNEW how to READ the TANAKH or HEBREW SACRED SCRIPTURES which was WRITTEN in HEBREW. (Luke 4:17-20)

He also spoke ARAMAIC, which was the DIALECT in Palestine during the time of Jesus. He LIVED in PALESTINE.

He also spoke GREEK, which during His time was the LINGUA FRANCA or COMMON LANGUAGE SPOKEN in the MEDITTEREANEAN REGION, owing to the conquest of Alexander the Great. Proof of this is HE READ and QUOTED the SEPTUAGINT which was the GREEK VERSION of the TANAKH.




4. Mark was an eyewitness to Jesus and was in fact ONE of the 70 DISCIPLES SENT by JESUS to the cities of Israel. (Luke 10:1-20) This is attested to by the church father Hippolytus of Rome who collected the accounts about the 70 DISCIPLES.

Mark was doubly a witness because he worked for PETER who taught him more of the words and works of Jesus.

Luke is an early Christian who INTERVIEWED WITNESSES to JESUS and INVESTIGATED the EVENTS surrounding the LIFE and WORDS of the LORD, and HE FOUND THEM to be TRUE. (Luke 1:1-4)




5. The New Testament was written in Greek with parts of it written in Hebrew and Aramaic.




6. There is NO PORNOGRAPHY in the BIBLE because GOD is NOT a PORNOGRAPHER.

PORNOGRAPHY is in the MIND of the READER. Some see PORNOGRAPHY because they have PORNOGRAPHIC MINDS.

Those who see PORNOGRAPHY in the BIBLE are only PROJECTING their OWN PORNOGRAPHIC THOUGHTS into it.



7. There are NO CONTRADICTIONS in the BIBLE.

Some THINK that there are contradictions in the Bible because THEY ARE IGNORANT of the CONTEXT of the VERSES and are IGNORANT of PROPER EXEGESIS.

To prove this point, I will explain the IGNORANCE in the belief that John 20:1 contradicts with Mt28:1 and Mk16:2.

When John said that “it was STILL DARK” when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb, he was not referring to the time or the condition of the day. He was referring to the condition of the SOUL or the MIND at that point in time.

The Greek word SKOTEEAH (DARK) can mean “IGNORANCE of DIVINE THINGS.” (See STRONG’S GREEK DICTIONARY NO. 4653)

Take note, that at the time that MARY went out to the TOMB she was “STILL IGNORANT” of the DIVINE FACT that JESUS HAD RISEN. She was “still in the dark” as to that TRUTH.

This being “still in the dark” takes GREATER MEANING when we LOOK at the FACT that John stated that JESUS is the “LIGHT OF THE WORLD.” (Jn 8:12, 9:5, 12:46)

Take note that when Jesus CALLED OUT Mary’s name in Jn 20:16, SHE “SAW” the LIGHT and immediately RECOGNIZED HIM as the “RABBOUNI” or MASTER. (This also takes reference to the words of Jesus in Jn 10:3 that He, as the GOOD SHEPHERD, “calls his own sheep by name.”)

After SEEING the LIGHT and the TRUTH, Mary PROCLAIMED that “I have SEEN the Lord.” (Jn20:18)



So, THERE IS NO CONTRADICTION between Jn 20:1 and Mt28:1 and Mk16:2. There is only a difference in CONTEXT.

There are also NO CONTRADICTIONS in the OTHER TEXTS that the MUSLIM DEBATER thinks are contradictory. He just DOES NOT SEE the TRUTH because has NOT SEEN THE LIGHT and he is IGNORANT of the CONTEXT and EXEGESIS of the TEXTS.

about 3 months ago · Delete Post

Interfaith Corner

Last post 4:32 PM KSA time 9PM Phil. Time. March 5 2011.


Cenon is expected to post his first rebuttal on or before 9PM Phil.Time March 7 2011.




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about 3 months ago · Report

Cenon Bibe

GLORY to the ONE TRUE GOD, the HOLY TRINITY: The FATHER, The SON, and The HOLY SPIRIT.




WHEN I read the answers of ALYAS POGI, whom from this point I will also refer to as MUSLIM DEBATER or MUSLIM, I FELT that I was reading the ramblings of a CONFUSED, IGNORANT LITTLE BOY who thinks that RUDENESS (kabastusan) and BAD MANNERS (masamang ugali) win arguments. I hope my feelings were wrong.



Anyway, I characterize the responses of the MUSLIM DEBATER as a string of LIES weaved into a web of CONTRADICTIONS decorated with IGNORANCE regarding the ISSUE.





MUSLIM LIE#1 (all the stresses are MINE)

HE LIED when he said that “YES” God did “TALK to Prophet Muhammad.”
Here, MUSLIM DEBATER CATEGORICALLY said that GOD and their prophet TALKED.

But then, MUSLIM CONTRADICTED HIMSELF when he said that it was “understood that THE QURAN WAS REVEALED THROUGH ANGEL GABRIEL.”

If the “revelations” were “THROUGH Angel Gabriel,” then it DISPROVES his claim that “YES,” God TALKED to their prophet.

MUSLIM PROVED that GOD NEVER TALKED to their prophet. An “ANGEL” did, according to him.



MUSLIM again CONTRADICTED and NEGATED his claim that God TALKED to their prophet when he defined “revelation” as “NOT necessarily TALKING face to face with God.”

In his own definition, MUSLIM showed GOD “NOT…TALKING” to their prophet, especially through revelation, which was supposedly done by an “angel.”



So, based on the CONTRADICTING STATEMENTS of MUSLIM, it shows that GOD NEVER TALKED to their prophet.

His claim that God talked to their prophet is clearly a LIE.




MUSLIM mentioned, MIRAJ, which is an Islamic belief that their prophet went up to “heaven” and “talked DIRECTLY to God.”

This is the ONLY TIME when the prophet of Islam supposedly had a DIRECT CONVERSATION with God. (They believe that all the other times, it was an “angel” who talked to their prophet)

But oddly, the supposed “conversation” between God and Islam’s prophet is NEVER MENTIONED and is NEVER TOLD IN DETAIL in the Quran.

I challenge my MUSLIM opponent to point to the SURAH that shows the VERY WORDS SPOKEN by GOD during that supposed CONVERSATION with their prophet.

If the MIRAJ were true, their prophet SHOULD HAVE RECORDED in the QURAN the VERY WORDS that GOD HIMSELF SPOKE.

MUSLIM’s FAILURE to SHOW this SURAH of the VERY WORDS SPOKEN by GOD to their prophet during the MIRAJ would tend to PROVE that the MIRAJ NEVER TOOK PLACE.






MUSLIM LIE#2

MUSLIM LIED when he said “YES” God “appointed Prophet Muhammad as Prophet.”
He cited S3:31, 4:80, 33:40 as “proof” of this “appointment.”

But these verses DO NOT QUOTE GOD as APPOINTING their prophet. There is NO WORD of GOD in the verses saying that HE is APPOINTING the prophet of Islam.

In fact, according to MUSLIM, the words in the verses are NOT WORDS of GOD but were WORDS of an “ANGEL.”

MUSLIM’s said it is “understood that the Quran was revealed through Angel Gabriel.”
CLEARLY, he is saying that it was an “ANGEL” who REVEALED these and NOT GOD.



But shouldn’t the words of the “angel” be considered the “words of God” since he is the “conduit” of God?

NOT in this case.

Like in my debate with White Jewel, MUSLIM FAILED to present any WITNESS or any PROOF that an “angel” revealed ANY of the words in the Quran.

Instead, MUSLIM said, “Did anybody HEAR the revelation? Watta joke!”

For MUSLIM DEBATER, it would be a JOKE to look for PROOF that an “angel” revealed anything to their prophet.

Why? BECAUSE THERE ISN’T ANY.

His statement is an ADMISSION that NO ONE SAW or HEARD an “angel” talk to their prophet and that THERE IS NO PROOF that an “angel” revealed the Quran to Islam’s prophet.






Like White Jewel, the MUSLIM DEBATER cited HADITH JIBREEL.

Here, MUSLIM made LIE#3.

My opponent said, “Yes! It (Hadith Jibreel) is narrated by the most authentic book of hadith, SAHIH BUKHARI and sahih muslim.”

LIE, LIE, LIE.

Hadith Jibreel was NEVER NARRATED by BUKHARI.

Of the 20 compilers of the traditions of Islam’s prophet, ONLY ONE RECORDED the supposed appearance of the “angel.” IT IS VIRTUALLY UNKNOWN to early Muslims, thus can be considered DOUBTFUL.

My opponent LIED about Hadith Jibreel being in BUKHARI out of DESPERATION because HE COULD NOT PROVE that an “angel” talked to their prophet and revealed the Quran.

Besides, even if we consider Hadith Jibreel, it is still NO PROOF that the “revelations” in the Quran came from an “angel.”

NO REVELATIONS were GIVEN in Hadith Jibreel. What was given by the “angel” was a QUIZ. TRUE ANGELS DO NOT GIVE QUIZZES.

In FACT, NOT A WORD supposedly SPOKEN when the “angel” came in Hadith Jibreel was RECORDED in the QURAN.





Then the MUSLIM DEBATER tried to coverup his INABILITY to PROVE that the “revelations” in the Quran were given by an “angel.” He cited the revelations to Moises and those in the Book of Revelations.

The REVELATIONS of GOD to MOSES were accompanied by SIGNS and WONDERS that were WITNESSED by MANY and PROVED that GOD TALKED to HIM.

Such signs and wonders include the PARTING of the SEA (Exodus14:16-22), the PILLARS of CLOUD and FIRE that accompanied God’s people (Ex13:21), WATER from the ROCK (Ex17:6), and MANY MORE.

On Mt. Sinai, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and 70 ELDERS of ISRAEL even SAW and GAZED upon GOD while they were with MOSES. (Exodus 24-9-11)

So, my opponent showed GROSS IGNORANCE regarding Moses and God’s revelations to him.




Regarding the Book of Revelations, MUSLIM again showed GROSS IGNORANCE when he said it was “written by people who didn’t see God nor any angel.”

Revelations was written by JOHN the APOSTLE after an angel of God came to him (Rev 1:1) and the LORD JESUS (GOD THE SON) APPEARED to HIM (Rev1:9-19).

John SAW an ANGEL and SAW GOD who REVEALED to HIM what is now written in the Book of Revelations. This PROVES that the BOOKS of the BIBLE are TRUE and PURE GOD’S WORDS.

So, MUSLIM’s attempt to COVERUP the ABSENCE OF PROOF that the Quran is a revelation of GOD is BUSTED.





MUSLIM LIE#4

MUSLIM said, “I did not say that the Quran was revealed by Angel Gabriel. What I said was the Quran was revealed by God through Angel Gabriel.”

He is trying to make FOOLS out of us.

GOD DID NOT REVEAL the Quran to Islam’s prophet. GOD WAS NOWHERE when the supposed revelations were made.

Who was the one who SUPPOSEDLY made the revelations?

The supposed “ANGEL.” So, it was the “angel” that REVEALED the Quran and NOT GOD.





MUSLIM LIE#5

MUSLIM said in his PRESENTATION, “All the words in the Quran is 100% word of God.”

But then HE CONTRADICTED HIMSELF when he said “so the disciples codified and STANDARDIZED the Qurayshi way of reading.”

When something is STANDARDIZED, it is ALTERED to MAKE A STANDARD or UNIFORM COPY.

According to BUKHARI, UTHMAN ORDERED this STANDARDIZATION or ALTERATION because of CONFLICTS and DIFFERENCES in the EARLIER MEMORIZED and CODIFIED VERSIONS of the QURAN.

That is the TESTIMONY of their HADITH.

Another PROOF of ALTERATION can be found in the ARABIC TEXTS themselves.

In many places, the QURAN is referred to as “AL-KITAB” or THE BOOK.

How can this be part of the ORIGINAL “revelation” to Islam’s prophet when the Quran was ONLY COMPILED into ONE BOOK AFTER the DEATH of Islam’s prophet?

And even then, his disciples ARGUED that their prophet NEVER COMPILED the Quran so THEY WERE AFRAID to COMPILE it. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201)




Also, the ISLAMIC SCHOLAR MOHSIN KHAN said in his “MEANING” of S22:52 that when the “revelation” was “recited” SATAN “THREW (some FALSEHOOD) in it.”

If that is so, how could the revelation be “100% PURE” as the MUSLIM DEBATER claims?






MUSLIM LIE#6

“Al-SAMIRI” is “the name of the person who misled the people while Moses was away.”

That is an INVENTION of our MUSLIM opponent to HIDE an apparent ERROR in Surah 20:85.

The REFERENCE that he gave PROVES that HE IS LYING.

• GO to the WEBSITE GIVEN by MUSLIM at (http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=20&tAyahNo=85&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2),

• CLICK on the DOWN ARROW on the RIGHT of the button that says “TAFSIR”

• Select the name “Tafsir al-Jalalayn”

• You will see that “al-Samiri” is NOT a NAME but a TRIBE—THE SAMARITAN.
Again, the SAMARITAN could not have existed during the TIME of MOSES because SAMARITANS only appeared HUNDREDS of YEARS LATER.

Isn’t that a CLEAR ERROR?





Now, to the VERSE that S2.23 is asking for.

Exodus20, specifically, verses 2-3

"I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.

“You shall not have other gods besides me.”


This verse was SPOKEN by GOD HIMSELF and NOT by an “angel.”

Anything SPOKEN by GOD HIMSELF is FAR SUPERIOR than those “revealed” by one of His SERVANTS.





TO GOD BE THE GLORY!

about 3 months ago · Delete Post

Cenon Bibe

Excuse me, Admin/Moderator:

Could you affirm my post.

Thank you.

about 3 months ago · Delete Post

Interfaith Corner

ATTN:

Cenon & Alyas Pogi

I have been informed that there is an ongoing electrical blackout in certain areas of the eastern province. I am not sure with the exact location of Admin-4. For the meantime I will act as the moderator of this debate if you like to.


Cenon's last post Sunday (Im not sure with the exact time now). If Alyas Pogi cant response on Tuesday, Cenon will be declared winner by default.



Thank you.


Admin-1

about 3 months ago · Report

Alyas Pogi

Bismillah….

Good day to everyone.

I am amazed how my opponent is acting in this debate; he is very angry and he attacked me personally.


I also noticed that he keeps on mentioning WhiteJewel and criticized him when WhiteJewel is not part of this debate. Cenon cant accept his clear defeat to WhiteJewel that is why he doesn’t stop mentioning WhiteJewel’s name in our debate. I would not be surprised if Cenon will say “I love you” to WhiteJewel not long time from now.

I forgive Cenon Bibe’s ad hominem for me because I understand that he knows that he is losing in this very early part of the debate.



Well, let’s go back to the issues in this debate:

We’ll now compare the two scriptures, the Bible and the Quran using the same criteria so we’ll see the difference.

Cenon Bibe doesn’t know how to compare stuff so what he did was comparing apples with oranges – Some people like apple, and some like oranges, so you can’t really judge which is better. He is using different standards so to speak.


Let me now then compare the two books using the same yardstick and we’ll see which book is really the word of God.


1. NAME OF THE SCRIPTURE

Did God call his scripture as Qur’an? YES!!!

(Surah Verily I revealed the Dhikr (Qur’an) and verily I will preserve It 15:9. It is also confirmed by many verses such as, 57;9 3;62 14;52

Did God call His Scripture as Bible? NO!!!

Who called the bible as word of God? Cenon Bibe!!!
See Cenon’s extremely poor logic:

CENON SAID:
“No, GOD DID NOT NEED to give any name to HIS WORD. That is why the BIBLE is simply THE WORD OF GOD.”

What kind of logic is that? Very FUNNY - THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD BECAUSE GOD DID NOT CALL IT BIBLE - oH my God!!

It is like saying – Cenon Bibe is called Cenon Bibe because his mother didn’t call him as Cenon Bibe – oH my God – what kind of logic is this, tsek! Tsek! Tsek!




2. WRITERS AND COMPILERS OF THE BOOK

Was the Quran written and compiled by eyewitnesses of it? YES!

The Sahabah headed by Zayd collected all the written copies of the Quran and compiled them as one book. They both wrote and memorized the Quran, so there is no doubt about its preservation and authenticity.



Was the bible written and compiled by eyewitnesses of it? NO!
Cenon can not even tell us, because he doesn’t know, who the writers of the many books of the bible. He simply claimed that those writers are known, BUT HEY! He cant even give us their names. Why?? Because they are UNKNOWN people. If they are known, then why Cenon cant give their names – Those books were written probably by the sex maniacs of those times because we read contradictions in it and PORNOGRAPHY even in the book of Ezekiel.

Cenon said this is not PORNOGRAPHY, so what is this?

20She LUSTED after lovers with GENITALS (PENIS) AS LARGE AS A DONKEY'S AND EMISSIONS (SEMEN) LIKE THOSE OF HORSES. 21And so, Oholibah, you relived your former days as a young girl in Egypt, when you first allowed your BREAST to be FONDLED.

Isn’t that MORE BRUTAL that Bandera and Toro Sex series? What about PLAYBOY MAGAZINE?

Cenon said that, that’s only depends on your mind – He is telling us that it is OKAY to READ PLAYBOY magazine because pornography is only in the mind – oH mY God !!! What kind of reasoning is this??

It is like saying that it is okay to READ INCEST, LESBIAN, ANIMAL SEX, GAY SEX magazines because there is no pornography in them because pornography is only in the mind – very funny!!!




3. IS THERE ANY ERROR IN THE CONTENTS?

I have pointed out the the Quran has no error, not a single. This has been agreed unanimously by all reputable Muslim scholars.

Cenon said that there is a mistake about the mention of the Qur’an of Samaritan because Samaritans didn’t exist during Moses’ time. I already pointed out the Al Samiri was the name of that person not his tribe. Al Samiri can be translated as The Samaritan, not Samaritan alone – Watch out of the article “Al” referring to a definite article which denotes NOUN not adjective. So even if you translate Al Samiri’s name as The Samaritan, it still refer to his name not to his place of origin or tribe. Moreover, the context of the ayah refers clearly to the person himself who mislead the Israelites not to his place or tribe. The strongest proof of all is the tafseer of Ibn Abbas which says it is Al Samiri, which is the real name of the person.

Cenon was so funny when he tried to refute Ibn Abbas’ tafseer with the mere translation of Jalalayn. Ibn Abbas was the greatest muffasir of Quran, and a sahabi and a nephew of Prophet Muhammad, while Al Jalalayn is a mere translator of the Quran and a recent scholar. This is like rejecting Peter’s understanding because of Cardinal Sin’s exegesis hehhhe. People who doesn’t understand Usool Ad-deen is really funny.

Cenno cant even distinguish the difference between a tafsir and a mere translation – duh!

Cenon said that there are no contradictions in his bible. He said that John 20:1 doesn’t contradict Matthew and Mark because John was talking about condition of the mind or the soul. But that is very funny alibi because if John was talking about the condition of the mind and soul because Mary did not know yet the plan, so why did Matthew and Mark didn’t mean that? Why Matthew and Mark mean time while John is about mind? – so that is far-fetched exegesis.

But then he stopped there because the following verses say AGAINST Cenon’s false exegesis because what was talking about is time not mind and soul.


For example - Did she go back to the tomb with any of them?
Matthew, Mark and Luke say NO but John said YES – Contradiction Matthew, Mark and Luke VESUS John


Did Mary Magdalene tell any men about the tomb?
This time Matthew, Luke, and John (Yes) VERSUS Mark (No)
So there is no way Cenon can escape these contradictions


There are lots of them, I can post them here until this debate is over and they will not be finished.



Let me proceed to some of the points discussed.

In the beginning, Cenon tried to belie that God didn’t talk to Prophet Muhammad, but later on, he admitted that God did talk to Prophet Muhammad during the Mi’raj – his only objection is why is it that the details are not fully written in the Quran – I thank Cenon for admitting that God did talk to Prophet Muhammad personally.

With regards to his question why the details are not full in the Quran is irrelevant because the Quran doesn’t really include all the details because it is a general instruction not aprocedural manual.

Example, God told us to perform the Salah, and give Zakah, and Hajj, and Fasting, yet the details are not mentioned because they are lengthy. This is why God told us to follow the sunnah because the details of the HOW is there. This is why the Quran said:


An-Nahl: 44 With clear proofs and writings; and We have revealed unto thee the Remembrance that thou mayst EXPLAIN to mankind that which hath been revealed for them, and that haply they may reflect.


Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (3:31)


And whatsoever the messenger giveth you, take it. And whatsoever he forbiddeth, abstain (from it). And keep your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is stern in reprisal. (59:7)

So there you go Mr. Cenon, the details are in the Sunnah – so if you want to know the details, read the Sunnah.





4. LANGUAGE OF THE SCRIPTURE

I clearly explained that the Quran is preserved in its original language, ARABIC and until today, we recite it in Arabic, therefore the original word of revelation is maintained.

The New Testament was originally written in Greek. However, Jesus spoke Aramaic and the 12 disciples of Jesus spoke Aramaic as well and most of them have no schooling; fishermen like Peter and John. Surprisingly, the Gospel according to John was written in Greek 70 years after Jesus. Firstly, it is extremely doubtful how did John wrote Greek when he doesn’t speak Greek. Lastly, why wait for 70 years to write?

Luke was an eye-witness? That’s a lie because Jesus never saw Luke and Luke was not there in the events.


I will address more stuff in my remaining rebuttals.

We have internet connection and electricity problem here in our area.


Thanks.


AP

about 3 months ago · Report

Interfaith Corner

Alyas Pogi's last post on March 7, 2011 10:43 PM KSA time (3:43 AM Phils.Time March 8, 2011)


Cenon Bibe's post would be on or before 3:43 AM Phils. Time March 10, 2011.


Thank you.



Admin-1

about 3 months ago · Report

Cenon Bibe

GLORY and PRAISE to the ONE TRUE GOD, THE HOLY TRINITY: The FATHER, The SON, and The HOLY SPIRIT.



This is only my second rebuttal but the DEBATE IS ALREADY OVER.

Like his brother WHITE JEWEL, Alyas Pogi himself has PROVEN that the QURAN IS NOT the WORD OF GOD.




A. MUSLIM PROVES that QURAN is NOT FROM GOD

1. POGI or MUSLIM DEBATER ADMITTED that NOT A WORD in the QURAN was SPOKEN by GOD to their PROPHET.

MUSLIM PROVED that GOD NEVER TALKED and NEVER REVEALED the QURAN to their PROPHET.

He said it was an “angel” that “revealed” it.

Sadly for the QURAN, MUSLIM ADMITTED that THERE IS NO PROOF that an “angel” revealed what is now written in the Islamic scriptures.

In fact, MUSLIM said that to look for PROOF is a “JOKE.”




2. On the other hand, MUSLIM FAILED to REFUTE that the Bible contains the VERY WORDS that God told His prophets and people.

God’s words are QUOTED WORD FOR WORD by WITNESSES, as in Exodus 20:2-3:

"I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me.”







B. SATAN’S FALSEHOOD, ALTERED BY MEN

• MUSLIM FAILED to DISPROVE that SATAN “THREW (some FALSEHOOD)” when the “revelation” was “recited” to them, as stated by Islamic scholar Muhammad Mohsin Khan in his “meaning” of S22:52.

• MUSLIM also DID NOT REFUTE the ALTERATIONS in the QURAN when UTHMAN ordered the “STANDARDIZATION” of the TEXT to REMOVE the CONFLICTS in the DIFFERENT TEXTS CODIFIED by the SAHABA. That’s according to the HADITH.

• MUSLIM DID NOT DISPUTE the ADDITION of the term “AL KITAB,” or The BOOK, in the current text of the Quran.

In short, MUSLIM DID NOT DENY that his claim that “All the words in the Quran is 100% word of God” is a BIG LIE.






C. MUSLIM’S LIES and WORTHLESS BASES

• To HIDE his INABILITY to PROVE that the QURAN is the WORD of GOD, MUSLIM made MORE LIES—against ME, against the BIBLE, and even against ISLAM’S OWN SCHOLARS.

• He then INVENTED his OWN STANDARDS to DECEIVE people about his CLAIMS. Let’s examine his CLAIMS and the STANDARDS he INVENTED.


1. NAME OF SCRIPTURE

MUSLIM said, “Did God call his scripture as Qur’an? YES!!!”

He then quotes from the Quran.

That’s a clear LIE.

MUSLIM PROVED that GOD NEVER REVEALED any part of the Quran, so HOW CAN MUSLIM CLAIM that it was GOD who called his scripture “Qur’an”?




MUSLIM DID NOT DISPUTE my statement that ONLY INVENTIONS are NAMED.

So, MUSLIM is ADMITTING that the “naming” of the Quran is a mere HUMAN “INVENTION.”




Again, God did not need to name HIS WORD. That’s because the BIBLE is God’s ONE AND ONLY WORD.

One reason why things are named is to DIFFERENTIATE it from OTHERS LIKE IT.

There is NOTHING LIKE the WORD of GOD so God did not need to name it.

In fact, the term “Bible” is NOT a name but a description for the collection of WORDS SPOKEN by GOD to HIS PROPETS and PEOPLE.




By insisting that the QURAN was NAMED by its makers, MUSLIM is admitting that the QURAN is JUST LIKE ANY OTHER BOOK which needs to be differentiated from the rest.

And if the Quran is just LIKE ANY OTHER BOOK, then MUSLIM is again PROVING that the Quran is NOT THE WORD OF GOD.





2. WRITERS AND COMPILERS OF THE BOOK

MUSLIM said, “Was the Quran written and compiled by eyewitnesses of it? YES! “

Another LIE.

The writers and compilers of the Quran were NOT EYEWITNESSES.

In fact, MUSLIM could NOT PRODUCE ONE WITNESS who SAW or HEARD God or any “angel” reveal the Quran.





MUSLIM again LIED when he said, “Was the bible written and compiled by eyewitnesses of it? NO!”

He DID NOT REFUTE the fact that the Bible was WRITTEN and COMPILED by the PEOPLE of GOD who are guided by the HOLY SPIRIT (John 16:13), the THIRD PERSON of the TRINITY—the ONE TRUE GOD.

For example, the GOSPELS were authored and written by APOSTLES (Matthew, John) and DISCIPLES (Mark) of JESUS, GOD THE SON who became man and DIRECTLY SPOKE to HIS PEOPLE.




For MUSLIM, the mention of “genitals” and “emissions” is PORNOGRAPHIC.

Take note, it was MUSLIM who ADDED “penis” and “semen,” which PROVES my point that PORNOGRAPHY is ONLY IN HIS MIND.

MUSLIM is the one with the PORNOGRAPHIC MIND, NOT THE BIBLE.

The QURAN itself mentions “semen” (nutfah). So, is MUSLIM claiming that the QURAN is PORNOGRAPHIC?




I would caution MUSLIM about talking about SEX MATTERS because their PROPHET is KNOWN to have MARRIED a 6-YEAR-OLD GIRL and had SEX with a 9-YEAR-OLD CHILD, which to MOST PEOPLE, except for pedophiles, is DETESTABLE.





3. IS THERE ANY ERROR IN THE CONTENTS?
MUSLIM repeated his LIE about the ERROR in S20:85, 87 and 95 and MADE a BIGGER LIE.

He said the “definite article” “THE” in “THE SAMARITAN” proves that it is a “name,” a PROPER NAME in particular.

That is GROSSLY FLAWED LOGIC, which shows GROSS IGNORANCE of grammar.

It is NOT STANDARD PRACTICE to put a definite article (“THE”) before a PROPER NAME.

A definite article can only be used for a PROPER NAME to differentiate its owner from OTHER PEOPLE who use THE SAME NAME.

In S20:85-95, there is ONLY ONE “SAMARITAN” mentioned so “THE” is NOT NEEDED.

On the contrary, the use of “THE” for “SAMARITAN” only shows that person’s TRIBE, which PROVES the ERROR in the Quranic verse.




Then MUSLIM DISCREDITS their own scholar AL-JALALAYN, whom he said made only a “mere translation” in S20:85 when he wrote “THE SAMARITAN.”

MUSLIM showed GROSS IGNORANCE of his own reference.

Al-Jalalayn ALSO wrote a TAFSIR or interpretation, just like IBN ABBAS. Check the label at the left of al-Jalalayn’s name. It says “TAFSIR.”





NO CONTRADICTIONS IN THE BIBLE

I proved that there is no contradiction between John 20:1 and with Matthew 28:1 and Mark 16:2.

MUSLIM’s only “rebuttal” is his saying that it my explanation is “funny.” What a LAME rebuttal.

He FAILED to REBUT my explanations and thus FAILED to PROVE that there are contradictions in the verses.



Trying to COVER UP his LAME EXCUSE for a rebuttal, MUSLIM comes up with ANOTHER one of the supposed “contradictions” that he IMAGINED in the Bible.

His new attack on the Bible involves Mark 16:8 where it says, “Trembling and bewildered, the women (Mary and company) went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.”

According to MUSLIM, it “contradicted” the accounts of Matthew, Luke and John where the women reported the RESURRECTION of JESUS to the other disciples.




There is NO CONTRADICTION there.

Again, MUSLIM is just showing GROSS IGNORANCE of the CONTEXT of the verse.

Take note that Mk16:8 ends with the women STILL FLEEING the tomb.

They had JUST FLED from the tomb and were STILL ON THEIR WAY BACK to the OTHER DISCIPLES. They were STILL ON THE ROAD.

That is the CONTEXT of “They said nothing to anyone.”

The women DID NOT SAY ANYTHING TO ANYONE while THEY WERE ON THE WAY BACK to the house where the other disciples were staying.

Read Mt 28:11-15 and you will see that WHILE the WOMEN were “ON THEIR WAY” the JEWS were ALREADY PLOTTING to DISCREDIT THEM and JESUS.

That was the reason the women DID NOT SAY ANYTHING to ANYONE ON THE ROAD.

When they ARRIVED at the HOUSE, THEY TOLD the OTHER DISCIPLES about the GOOD NEWS that JESUS HAD RISEN from the dead. (Jn20:18, Lk24:9)

Here is the testimony of Lk24:9

“When they CAME BACK from the tomb, THEY TOLD all these things to the Eleven and to all the others.”

SEE? NO CONTRADICTION.





NO MIRAJ

I challenged MUSLIM to SHOW in the Quran the VERY WORDS supposedly TOLD by God to their prophet during the “al-Miraj.”

Sadly, MUSLIM has this IDIOTIC IDEA that this CHALLENGE is an admission on my part that “God did talk to Prophet Muhammad.”

MUSLIM FAILED to SHOW PROOF in the QURAN that the supposed CONVERSATION ever took place.

Worse, MUSLIM said the WORDS SPOKEN by GOD during the supposed al-Miraj were “IRRELEVANT.”

How can he say that the Quran is the WORD OF GOD when he admits that THE VERY WORDS of GOD are IRRELEVANT in the Quran?

So, MUSLIM’s shows that al-MIRAJ NEVER HAPPENED and that the QURAN is NOT the WORD of GOD.





4. LANGUAGE OF SCRIPTURE

MUSLIM’s INSISTENCE on the QURAN as being written in ARABIC further DISPROVES that it is the word of God.

ALL the TRUE PROPHETS of GOD NEVER SPOKE ARABIC.

In fact, NONE of the TRUE PROPHETS of GOD were ARABS.

So, how can a book written in a language that was NEVER SPOKEN by GOD’S PROPHETS become the pure word of God?




TO GOD BE THE GLORY!

about 3 months ago · Delete Post

Interfaith Corner

Last post 7:46 PM KSA

Alyas Pogi is expected to post on or before 7:46 KSA March 10, 2011



Admin-4

about 3 months ago · Report

Alyas Pogi

Bismillah....



Before I proceed, I would like to response to Cenon’s lies in this debate so that my position for the Quran will be cleared up.


He said that I admitted that God did not talk to Prophet Muhammad –
I clearly said that God did speak personally during the Isra wal mi’raj
I also said that Archangel Gabriel was just a CONDUIT of the word of God - perhaps Cenon doesn’t know the meaning of CONDUIT.
Even cited Surah 112 as an example; the verse starts with “Qul” which means an instruction of God for Prophet Muhammad by God to “Say”
The verse doesn’t say “Qalaallah qul” “God said say” because Angel Gabriel has no word in it. The verse directly says “Qul” which is a direct word of God to Prophet Muhammad.

The reason why Cenon likes to see God speaking to Prophet Muhammad like a person because their Gods are like human beings such as the skinny Jesus on the cross and the old man father in heaven – well unfortunately, that is not our God - so what Cenon did is begging the question due to his ignorance in Islamic theology – he wants to compare it with their poor theology.

Moreover, the quranic challenge in Surah 2:23 – I am waiting for Cenon to post a Surah like it, talking about God in a poetic-prose-like and complete manner. I would be very happy to see it.

So I did prove that the Quran is the word of God 100% - I leave that for the audience to decide, not Cenon.

Cenon is looking for a verse like exodus 20:2-3 which has the pronoun I for God; well, here it is/are
And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me. Surah 51:56
See, it is Cenon’s lack of knowledge about the Quran that is why he didn’t know it.


He said that Satan threw falsehood in the Quran in surah 22:52 but that is absolutely incorrect. Here is the verse:
[22:52] We did not send before you any messenger, nor a prophet, without having the devil interfere in his wishes. GOD then nullifies what the devil has done. GOD perfects His revelations. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

God said that the every time God sends a messenger or a prophet before Prophet Muhammad the devil interferes in their minds or wishes but God prevented the devil from doing so because God wants His revelation to be perfect.

So Cenon’s accusation is based on ignorance, he didn’t even bother to read the verse – it is self-explanatory – he simply imitated the accusations of the ignorant Christians from anti-islamic webs.
If what Cenon meant is that Prophets cant be tempted by Satan, the he is DUBUNKING JESUS because Jesus was tempted by Satan for 40 days

Therefore, the Satan accusation is a clear myth. Simply read the full verse – If he cant understand it, ill translate it in Tagalog for him.

He said that Uthman altered the Quran – No Uthman didn’t alter the Quran. He simply ordered that the original Qurayshi harf will be followed and the other huruf will be burned in order not to confuse the reading – The qurayshi reading is the original one because it is the language of Prophet Muhammad while the other harf is from the other tribes’ way of reading. The Quran which Uthman used as the standard Quran is the Qurayshi reading which was compiled by the sahabah headed by Zayd, the head scribe of the Prophet during the Khaliphate of Abu Bakr – and all of these people are Prophet Muhammad’s close companions – so they are eyewitnesses to it.



Cenon said that the word “kitab” is not part of the Quran – That’s ignorance!
The very first verse of the Quran calls the Quran as Kitab;
Dhalikal KITAB la rayba fey huda lilmutaqqeen (surah 2:2) – There it is Kitab referring to the Quran


Cenon ignorantly said that the Arabic Quran is a proof that the Quran is not from God because no Prophet was an Arab?

That’s argument from Silence – Prophet Hud, and Prophet Saleh were Arabs, and so was Prophet Muhamamd. Moreover I did not say that the previous scriptures were Arabic – what I said was the language in which the revelation was spoken is maintained - Since Prophet Muhammad is an Arab, so the revelation of God should be in Arabic in order that it will be understood by the Prophet. In the same token, since Jesus spoke Aramaic, it necessarily follow therefore that his Gospel would be in Aramaic—HOWEVER, so sad to know that the supposed gospel of Jesus was not originally written in Aramaic but in Greek, the language of the Pagans.

So all issues/allegations against the Quran is cleared up.






BACK TO THE BIBLE

Cenon said that the bible is simply the word of God because God didn’t call it bible – Oh my God, what kind of reasoning is this??

If I write a book and then I will not name it, then it is word of God because I didn’t name it – so funny – where is this logic from?

The word bible, as admitted by Cenon simply means compiled books. So if you compile books as one codex, it is called bible even it is not word of God.


He said that only inventions are named – That is wrong! And says who, Cenon? Lolz
Cenon was not invented by his parents, yet he is named Cenon -

Names are given to make something known or identified not because it is invented by humans. – Cenon’s logic miserably failed. Names are for identification purposes. Proper names are proper identification of proper place, person, or thing – it has nothing to do with inventions because whether a thing is invented or not, it has a name.

The name bible as word of God is an invention because Cenon admitted that God didn’t call His word as bible – Thanks to Cenon.



Cenon said in his opening:
Firstly, the WORDS of the BIBLE are WORDS SPOKEN by GOD HIMSELF either

• DIRECTLY to WITNESSES who HEARD HIM SPEAK
But God didn’t talk to Paul, to Luke, and to Mark – Those people were not present when Jesus was there - so based on Cenon’s criteria, the Bible is not the word of God.
Cenon further said:


Or through HUMAN AUTHORS/WRITERS who were GUIDED by HIS HOLY SPIRIT.
But Cenon failed to identify the writers of Hebrews, Judges, Chronicles and Kings
Again, Cenon’s criteria prove his bible to be not the word of God.


After WhiteJewel DEBUNKED Cenon’s water analogy, he now presented the SUN analogy:

“The SUN has LIGHT.
From the LIGHT of the SUN comes LIGHT that is VISIBLE AROUND US.
From the LIGHT AROUND US is LIGHT that ENTERS our EYES and ILLUMINATES us within.”

So, we see THREE LIGHTS:
• One LIGHT that is on the SUN itself,
• ONE LIGHT that is shining AROUND US, and
• ONE LIGHT that ENTERS our EYES.


But I will DEBUNK this very poor analogy:

1- SO the question now:

Is the light sun?
No !!

Is the heat sun?
No!!!

They are stemmed from one body, but
they are not independent from the sun
moreover, they don’t have the same qualities of the sun.


The three Devine persons are totally different in the qualities and totally separated from one another. So, how could they be one?!!!!



We say, the sun is round, hot, and bright, but all of these are just qualities of the sun.
So, Can we say, the heat is son or uncle or father???? !!!


The rays of the sun can be divided into parts if they pass across your fingers, but can God be divided?!!!

So again, Cenon Bibe ended up with a GARBAGE ANALOGY – Sorry for that sun analogy, it doesn’t work at all.

Cenon said that the writers were guided by the holy Spirit – But Luke said that he wrote because it SEEMS good for him to write not because he is guided by the holy spirit:
Luke 1:3-4 3Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke was just writing to Theophilus – he had no idea that his letter to Theophilus will be made as word of God.

More contradictions:

"God" caused David to number the people. 2 Samuel 24:1
"Satan" caused David to number the people. 1 Chronicles 21:1

Solomon had 40,000 stalls of horses. 1 Kings 4:26
Solomon had 4,000 stalls of horses. 2 Chronicles 9:25

This is why we are asking who the writers are because they have a lot of mistakes, but Cenon doesn’t know who they are – THAT IS VERY SAD INDEED.

I will continue in my next rebuttal. For the meantime we will wait for Cenon to refute my argument against his SUN analogy and these contradictions.



Thanks.


AP

about 3 months ago · Report

Cenon Bibe

GLORY TO THE ONE TRUE GOD, THE HOLY TRINITY: THE FATHER, AND THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.




MUSLIM DEBATER LIED AGAIN … and even CONTRADICTED HIMSELF AGAIN.

He said, “I clearly said that God did speak personally during the Isra wal mi’raj”

I CHALLENGED MUSLIM to PROVE that GOD SPOKE to their PROPHET by POINTING TO THE SURAH which RECORDED the VERY WORDS that GOD purportedly said to their PROPHET during the MIRAJ.

MUSLIM FAILED to POINT to ANY SURAH.

Worse, MUSLIM even said that the VERY WORDS SPOKEN by GOD were “IRRELEVANT” and DID NOT MERIT being INCLUDED in the QURAN.

In short, HE CANNOT PROVE that AL-MIRAJ EVER TOOK PLACE.

HE CANNOT PROVE that GOD INDEED TALKED to their PROPHET DIRECTLY.

So, that PROVES that MUSLIM again LIED when he said “God did speak personally during the Isra wal mi’raj”





He PROVED that his statement above is A LIE when he said, “I also said that Archangel Gabriel was just a CONDUIT of the word of God.”

If it were true that an “angel” acted as a “CONDUIT,” then it ONLY MEANS that NO DIRECT REVELATION or CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE between God and their prophet. It was the “CONDUIT” that made the “revelation,” if there were indeed any.

But again, MUSLIM NEVER even PROVED that an “angel” acted as a “conduit” to their PROPHET.

In the ABSENCE of PROOF, it can be concluded that NO ANGEL MADE any REVELATION to their PROPHET.

It seems MUSLIM is JUST IMAGINING the purported “angel.”





MUSLIM showed GRAVE LACK OF LOGIC when he said: “The verse doesn’t say “Qalaallah qul” “God said say” because Angel Gabriel has no word in it. The verse directly says “Qul” which is a direct word of God to Prophet Muhammad.

That DOES NOT PROVE that it was God who said “Qul.”

ANYONE could have SAID “QUL.”

The FACT that MUSLIM ADMITTED that GOD DID NOT SPEAK DIRECTLY to their PROPHET PROVES that GOD DID NOT SAY “QUL” to their PROPHET.

And since MUSLIM CANNOT PROVE that an “angel” talked to their prophet, it can be concluded that NO ANGEL said “Qul” to their prophet.

So, who said “Qul” to their prophet?

That is a question that MUSLIM should ANSWER and PROVE.




I THANK MUSLIM for making this BIG ADMISSION:

“The reason why Cenon likes to see God speaking to Prophet Muhammad like a person … – well unfortunately, that is not our God.”

GOD TALKED “like a person” to all the TRUE PROPHETS of GOD.

If GOD NEVER TALKED to ISLAM’S PROPHET, as MUSLIM asserts, then he is only showing that their prophet is NOT a PROPHET of GOD.





GOD DIRECTLY SPOKE to HIS PROPHETS to ASSURE BELIEVERS that they are receiving TRUE and AUTHENTIC WORDS of GOD

For MUSLIM, the “true and authentic” words of God are words NOT SPOKEN BY GOD HIMSELF.

So, I don’t know how he could believe such as “pure words of God.”





MUSLIM claims that Surah 51:56 is like the DIRECT WORD of GOD in Exodus 20:2-3.

WRONG!

The WORDS of GOD in Ex20:2-3 were SPOKEN by GOD HIMSELF and it was HEARD and RECORDED by MOSES.

On the contrary, MUSLIM has DECLARED that the WORDS in the QURAN, like in s51:56, WERE NOT SPOKEN by GOD HIMSELF.

So, s51:56 CANNOT be COMPARED to Ex20:2-3, which is PURE and AUTHENTIC WORD OF GOD.





I wonder where MUSLIM got his TRANSLATON of s22:52. IT is VASTLY DIFFERENT from and GRAVELY CONTRARY to the “meanings” done by REPUTABLE ISLAMIC SCHOLARS.

MOHSIN KHAN:
“Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you but when he did recite the revelation or narrated or spoke, Shaitan (Satan) threw (some falsehood) in it.”

YUSUF ALI:
“Never did We send an apostle or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire:”

SHAKIR
“And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaitan made a suggestion respecting his desire;”

PICKTHAL
“Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof.”



ALL of these RESPECTED SCHOLARS of ISLAM said their God NEVER SENT a MESSENGER or PROPHET BEFORE or AHEAD of their Prophet Muhammad.

But in the TRANSLATION used by MUSLIM, it is made to appear that their GOD INDEED SENT ANOTHER MESSENGER AHEAD of their PROPHET MUHAMMAD.

Here it is again:
“We did not send before you any messenger, nor a prophet, without having the devil interfere in HIS WISHES.”



TAKE NOTE that the ACTION VERBS “he did recite,” “he framed,” “he desired,” and “He recited” were ALTERED and CHANGED into the POSSESSIVE “HIS WISHES.”

Apparently, MUSLIM used a CORRUPTED or DISTORTED TRANSLATION of s22:52 to HIDE THE TRUTH and to suit the LIES that he has been telling us.





MUSLIM LIED and CONTRADICTED HIMSELF when he said “Uthman didn’t alter the Quran. He simply ordered that the original Qurayshi harf will be followed and the other huruf will be burned in order not to confuse the reading.”

This CONTRADICTED the CLAIM of MUSLIM that the QURAN MEMORIZED and CODIFIED by the SAHABAH were “ALL 100% PURE and AUTHENTIC.”

If they were ALL 100% PURE and AUTHENTIC, UTHMAN did not have any REASON to have the “OTHER HURUF” BURNED.

The FACT that UTHMAN BURNED the “OTHER HURUF” SHOWS that THEY WERE NOT PURE and AUTHENTIC, as claimed by MUSLIM, and would only CONFUSE readers.

So, by MUSLIM’s ADMISSION, it is clear that UTHMAN ALTERED the TEXT to make it less confusing.




Was the word “KITAB” or “BOOK” part of the ORIGINAL “REVELATION”?

How could it be when THERE WAS NO BOOK to REFER TO when the supposed revelations were made?

It seems MUSLIM is IGNORANT of the FACT that the Quran was supposedly “revealed” in “sections.” There was NO BOOK in the beginning.

Obviously, “KITAB” could have ONLY been ADDED to the CURRENT TEXT.





MUSLIM said, “I did not say that the previous scriptures were Arabic.”

PRECISELY.

Before the Quran and Islam’s prophet, NO BOOK OF GOD was WRITTEN in ARABIC.

So, HOW CAN MUSLIM claim that the Quran is the word of God when it is written in a language NEVER USED by the PROPHETS of GOD?

MUSLIM’s assertion that the Quran was written ONLY IN ARABIC could only PROVE that IT IS NOT the WORD OF GOD.






But what about “prophets Hud and Saleh”?

They were NEVER MENTIONED in the BIBLE and WERE NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED as PROPHETS because THEY DID NOT HAVE ANY CONNECTION with the EARLY PROPHETS and the PEOPLE of GOD.

They were only ACCEPTED by ARABS.






GREEK was USED by GOD in His REVELATIONS. JESUS HIMSELF and HIS DISCIPLES SPOKE and USED GREEK. Before them, the OLD TESTAMENT was even TRANSLATED INTO GREEK.

THEY NEVER USED ARABIC.





WHO GAVE the “NAME” to Islam’s GOD?

Did their GOD “ALLAH” GIVE HIMSELF that name?

NO. HE DID NOT NEED TO GIVE HIMSELF a NAME because HE STANDS BY HIMSELF.

That is why Muslims simply call their God “ALLAH,” which means “GOD.”

That is why claims that GOD NEEDED to GIVE a NAME [to]his WORDS is DOUBTFUL and SHOWS IGNORANCE.





My PARENTS GAVE ME a NAME to DIFFERENTIATE ME from the BILLIONS of OTHER SONS in the WORLD.

But when my PARENTS are REFERRING ONLY to ME, THEY CALL ME “ANAK.” NO NEED to use a NAME.





In the case of the BIBLE, there are NO OTHER WORDS OF GOD in the WORLD. So, NO NAME is NEEDED. IT is SIMPLY the WORD OF GOD, or the BOOK/S of GOD’S WORD.





MUSLIM LIE and IGNORANCE = “But God didn’t talk to Paul, to Luke, and to Mark”

The TRUTH IS GOD DIRECTLY SPOKE to PAUL (Acts9:4-6).

MARK was one of the 70 DISCIPLES SENT OUT by GOD THE SON, JESUS. (Luke10:1)

GOD the HOLY SPIRIT GUIDED and DIRECTLY TALKED to LUKE. (John16:13, 1Tim3:16)



MUSLIM LIE = “Cenon failed to identify the writers of Hebrews, Judges, Chronicles and Kings.”

I have repeatedly said that AUTHOR of those writings is GOD and it HUMAN AUTHORS are GOD’S PEOPLE.

MUSLIM CANNOT REFUTE THOSE FACTS.





Like WHITE JEWEL, MUSLIM INVENTED his OWN IDIOTIC ANALOGY and ATTACKED HIS INVENTION.

TAKE NOTE: MUSLIM’S ANALOGY is about the “SUN” and NOT ABOUT LIGHT, which is MY ANALOGY.




MUSLIM INVENTION=“The three Devine persons are totally different in the qualities and totally separated from one another”

GOD THE FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT are ALL POWERFUL. What QUALITY about POWERFUL is TOTALLY DIFFERENT in them?

NONE.




GOD GUIDED LUKE in HIS INVESTIGATION. THAT’s why HIS ACCOUNT IS CERTAINLY TRUE. (Lk1:1-4)

SATAN was NOT ABLE to THROW FALSEHOOD in IT. (CONTRAST s22:52)




I have REPEATEDLY DISPROVED MUSLIM’s CLAIMS of CONTRADICTIONS it the BIBLE.

UNABLE to PROVE his claims, MUSLIM RANTS about MORE supposed CONTRADICTIONS, like in Samuel and Chronicles.

For MORE PROOF that there are NO CONTRADICTIONS in the BIBLE, CLICK HERE: http://sagot-sa-balik-islam.blogspot.com/2009/03/sagot-sa-balik-islam-2-2-sam-241-at-1.html





TO GOD BE THE GLORY.

about 3 months ago · Delete Post

Alyas Pogi

Bismillah

I sensed that my opponent Cenon has become bankrupted in argument so what he did is insist his accusations which already been answered and neglect to defend his bible. His words are full of anger because of his defeat with whitejewel and in this debate as well inshaallah.


Cenon’s question about the Mi’raj has been answered, but then his demand that it should have been written in detail – but the point is that not having it written in detail in the Quran doesn’t imply that it didn’t take place. Moreover, the Quran really doesn’t provide all the details because it is general information – the details are in the sunnah.


I also explained how the words of God were revealed to Prophet Muhammad and how the Quran is unmixed with any word by Angel Gabriel or by Prophet Muhammad – this is agreed by all scholars since the very beginning - the proof is that the Quran is inimitable; it cant be produced by other than God.


The challenge stands still in Surah 2:23 which Cenon cant refute. I cited Surah al Ikhlas, Surah 112:1-4 and I was waiting that Cenon would come up and take the challenge to bring a Surah like it. However, his three rebuttals are over but did he bring anything?? NONE whatsoever!


So the Qur’an acid test so to speak, clears all the doubt about the Quran. If you don’t believe that the Quran is the word of God, then bring a Surah like it.


With regards to his allegation about Satan interfering the Prophets’ minds was a product of misunderstanding and cut and paste. He deliberately cut the context of the verse so it would appear bad. He only posted half and hide the remainder of it.


“[22:52] We did not send before you any messenger, nor a prophet, without having the devil interfere in his wishes.”

He cut the verse and did not post this part:


“But Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in; then Allah makes precise His verses. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.”



Cenon was shocked after knowing that the verse has a continuation – he thought that there is none, so he asked where I got my translation. All translations state the same, but the problem is he cut the remainder of the verse. For his benefit, here is the source of my translation:

http://quran.com/22

He also did not refute that even Jesus was tempted by Satan for 40 days – does that mean that Jesus was a false man of God because he was tempted by Satan –


See, because of very deficient knowledge, Cenon’s attack to the integrity of Prophet Muhammad slams back to his very face.


Since all his allegations against the Quran had been dealt with, I will leave them for the audience to decide. The evidences about the authenticity of the Quran is explained in detail and can be read in a book called Ulumul Quran by Ahmad Von Denfer.


Cenon merely copied his allegations from anti-islamic web without knowing that they have been answered long time ago, thus Cenon’s frustrations and anger become extreme



I will now continue to debunk Cenon’s opening about the bible. I will massacre all the points Cenon had cited to support his claims.


If we try to go back to Cenon’s opening, he did not bring any convincing proof. In fact, my question about the identity of the writers of the bible remains unanswered until now. This has been the old question since the previous debate with whitejewel.
He defended Luke to be the writer of Luke which means that Luke identity is important – fine!


But the problem is, the writers of Hebrews, Chronicles, Kings, Judges, and Deuteronomy are unknown people.


Cenon’s escape goat is to attribute their authorship to God without realizing that he is attributing ERRORS to God because those books have many errors and contradictions.


I cited some examples of those contradictions which Cenon cant refute.
I can add more:


How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
• Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26)
• Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2)


How old was Jehoiachin when he became king of Jerusalem?
• Eighteen (2 Kings 24:8)
• Eight (2 Chronicles 36:9)


How long did he rule over Jerusalem?
• Three months (2 Kings 24:8)
• Three months and ten days (2 Chronicles 36:9)


There are lot of these errors in those books, that is why we need to know who wrote this erroneous books.



Cenon doesn’t know who they are, so he decided to attribute them to God, but how could God commit errors in his own words? That doesn’t make sense at all.


Even in the very book of Genesis, we find a clear cut error in the first page of it:


THERE WERE EVENING AND MORNING WITHOUT THE SUN

Bible says in book of Genesis Ch 1: V 3-5:
- Light was created on first day


Genesis Ch 1: V 14-19:
- Cause of light, stars, sun was created on fourth day


How can the cause of light be created on the fourth day later than the light which came into existence on the 1st day?


Book of Genesis Ch1: V 9-13:
- Earth was created on the third day


How can you have a night and day without the earth? The day depends on the rotation of the earth.

Book of Genesis Ch1: V 9-13
- The sun and the moon was created on the fourth day


Today science tells us earth is part of the parent body of the sun. It can not come into existence before the sun.


Book of Genesis Ch1: V 11-13
- The vegetables, the herbs, the trees, they were created on the third day

Book of Genesis Ch 1: V 14-19
- Sun was created on the fourth day


How can the vegetation come into existence without sunlight? And how can it survive without sunlight?

Book of Genesis Ch 1: V 16
- And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.


The actual translation if you go to the Hebrew text it is lamps having light of its own and what you will come to know better if you read both verses.

Book of Genesis Ch 1: V 16-17

- And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
To give light to the earth indicating the sun and the moon has its own light which is in contradiction with established scientific knowledge that we have today.

So these cant be the word of God, let alone pure word of God???




Now the trinity, this is my favorite part.


Cenon admitted impliedly that his SUN analogy of the trinity miserably fails just like his water analogy. So he denied the SUN analogy and said that his analogy is not about the SUN really but about the light.


Here is what he wrote:


"So, we see THREE LIGHTS:
• One LIGHT that is on the SUN itself,
• ONE LIGHT that is shining AROUND US, and
• ONE LIGHT that ENTERS our EYES.
He doesn’t want to talk about the sun yet the light that he is talking about come from the sun"



I will still DEBUNK his alibi inshallah.

The three lights analogy fails in its very face, why???


It is because it has a source, the SUN. But God doesn’t have source because God is the source.


GOD DOESN’T HAVE A SOURCE WHILE CENON’S THREE LIGHT HAS – very bad analogy indeed.


Moreover, even if we remove the sun as the light’s source, the three lights are not the same:


• The light in the sun is so strong and is lighting fiercely than the other two lights – does any member of the trinity fiercer than the other? I don’t think so


• The light shining around us has been filtered by the OZONE layer so the ultra-violate rays is diminished – does any member of the trinity weaker than the other? I don’t think so.


• The light that enters our eyes is more diminished than the other two

The Doctrine of trinity says that each of the three persons is co-equal with each other – NOT one is stronger than the other.


So even a little child could refute Cenon’s extremely poor and erroneous analogy.


With regards to the PORNOGRAPHY in Ezekiel he didn’t refute it. He said that GENITALS in the verse don’t mean PENIS, and EMMISSONS doesn’t mean SEMEN. May be the FONDLED BREAST also doesn’t mean BOOBS hehehe.


But read it for yourself Ladies and Gentlemen – it means as written. PORNOGRAPHY!



I am so sorry for Cenon, all his standpoints has been DEBUNKED.


He again lost in this debate miserably. I’m so sorry for his second defeat in this forum.




Thanks



AP

about 3 months ago · Report

Cenon Bibe

GLORY TO THE ONE TRUE GOD, THE HOLY TRINITY: THE FATHER, AND THE SON, AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.





* NOT WORD OF GOD

MUSLIM was supposed to PROVE that the QURAN is the PURE WORD of GOD.

HE FAILED to do that.

1. Muslim FAILED to PROVE that GOD HIMSELF revealed the Quran. Thus, the words in the Quran CANNOT BE CALLED the “word of God.”

2. Muslim ADMITTED that it was NOT GOD that “revealed” the Quran. He claimed that an “angel” made the “revelation.”

3. Despite his claim that an “angel” “revealed” the Quran, Muslim FAILED to PRODUCE any WITNESS or EVIDENCE to prove his claim. Thus, the Quran CANNOT EVEN be CALLED the “WORD OF AN ANGEL.”






* QURAN “NOT COMPLETE”

MUSLIM said, “Quran really doesn’t provide all the details because it is general information – the details are in the sunnah.”

So, what MUSLIM is saying is that the QURAN is NOT COMPLETE, but the SAYINGS of their prophet is COMPLETE.

The WORDS of a MAN is MORE COMPLETE than what they believe as the “word of God”?






* ALL MIXED UP

MUSLIM insists that “the Quran is unmixed with any word by Angel Gabriel or by Prophet Muhammad.”

But the Quran itself REFUTES his claim.

If the Quran was “PURELY GOD’S WORD,” then it should be GOD who is DIRECTLY SPEAKING in the Quran.

God should be SPEAKING in the FIRST PERSON in the ENTIRE Quran.

But NO.

Surah 2:255 provides an example.

It says:
“Allah. There is no god but HE,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize HIM nor sleep. HIS are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as HE permitteth? HE knoweth what (appeareth to HIS creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of HIS knowledge except as HE willeth. HIS Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and HE feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for HE is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).” (Yusuf Ali)


First, notice that there is no “QUL” or “SAY” in the verse or anywhere near it.

Second, notice also that the ENTIRE VERSE is describing Allah and is talking about ALLAH in the THIRD PERSON.

Had ALLAH said those words Himself, the entire verse should have been in the FIRST PERSON.

Obviously, S2:255 was SPOKEN by SOMEONE ELSE OTHER than ALLAH.







* MELTED IN MUSLIM’S ACID TEST

MUSLIM FAILED to REFUTE the FAR SUPERIOR VERSE that I PROVIDED in response to S2:23.

Exodus 20:2-3 (“I, the LORD, am YOUR GOD …) are WORDS SPOKEN by GOD HIMSELF and it OUTWEIGHS any SURAH which MUSLIM ADMITS are NOT THE WORDS of GOD HIMSELF.

Thus, the Quran MELTS in MUSLIM’s ACID TEST.







* SATAN’S FALSEHOOD UNCHALLENGED

MUSLIM FAILED to REFUTE the PROOF given by FOUR RESPECTED ISLAMIC SCHOLARS who said SATAN “THREW” some “FALSEHOOD” into the REVELATIONS given to them. (s22:52)

Surely, SATAN’S “FALSEHOOD” “THROWN” into the “REVELATION” cannot be considered the WORD OF GOD.







* ARABIC DOWNFALL

MUSLIM claimed that the ARABIC language “proved” that the Quran is “God’s word.”

On the contrary, the EXCLUSIVITY of ARABIC in the Quran PROVED that IT IS NOT GOD’S WORD.

NONE of the PROPHETS of GOD SPOKE ARABIC and NONE of the SCRIPTURES of GOD was in ARABIC.





* DIFFERENCES AND CONFLICTS OF PROPHET’S FOLLOWERS

MUSLIM boasted that the Quran was “MEMORIZED and WRITTEN” by their prophet’s disciples.

But the DISCIPLES of their prophet MEMORIZED DIFFERENT VERSIONS of the Quran and MANY EARLY MUSLIMS got CONFUSED. So, UTHMAN, ORDERED the DIFFERENT TEXTS to be CHANGED into QURAISH, then ORDERED the BURNING of the OTHER TEXTS.

Why BURN the OTHER TEXTS if they were “100% FREE OF CORRUPTION” as MUSLIM CLAIMS?






* WITH ERRORS

MUSLIM said the QURAN has NO ERRORS. We presented the ERROR about THE SAMARITAN in S20:85.

MUSLIM’s efforts to explain that ERROR only PROVED that IT WAS INDEED an ERROR.






In all these, we are left with ONE CONCLUSION: MUSLIM FAILED to PROVE that the QURAN is the PURE WORD of GOD.







ON THE CONTRARY, I PROVED that the BIBLE is the PURE WORD of GOD.





It was REVEALED DIRECTLY by GOD to HIS PROPHETS and PEOPLE.

God TALKED DIRECTLY to people like ADAM, and to PROPHETS like MOISES, and then to the FIRST CHRISTIANS.

In the OLD TESTAMENT, GOD the FATHER SPOKE through HIS WORD.

In the NEW TESTAMENT, GOD THE SON BECAME MAN and DIRECTLY REVEALED HIMSELF to His FOLLOWERS. (John1:1, 14, 18)

Even TODAY, GOD is DIRECTLY GUIDING HIS PEOPLE through GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT. (John16:13)

Their WORDS and REVELATIONS have been WRITTEN and COLLECTED into ONE BOOK, the BIBLE—which is TRULY the ONE TRUE WORD OF GOD.




MUSLIM made a new attempt to discredit my ANALOGY of LIGHT.

His contention is that the analogy is wrong because the THREE LIGHTS have a “source,” which he says is the “SUN.”

Muslim says, “GOD DOESN’T HAVE A SOURCE WHILE CENON’S THREE LIGHT HAS.”

That only shows that HE DID NOT UNDERSTAND the ANALOGY.




When we look at the SUN, do we see a DIFFERENT LIGHT APART from the SUN?

NO. The SUN is the LIGHT ITSELF.

In the ANALOGY, the SUN ITSELF is the “FIRST LIGHT” which is the “SOURCE” from which the TWO OTHER LIGHTS COME FORTH.

GOD the FATHER is the “SOURCE” from which GOD THE SON and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT COME FORTH.

From the SUN (the FIRST LIGHT) COMES the SECOND LIGHT, which then SHINES AROUND US.

This SECOND LIGHT is like GOD THE SON who CAME from the FATHER.(Jn16:28)

Then there is the THIRD LIGHT which enters our EYES, as GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT ENTERS our VERY SELVES to ENLIGHTEN US.





Now, MUSLIM already SAW the TRINITY in the LIGHT ANALOGY when he said:

“The light in the sun is so strong and is lighting fiercely than the other two lights.”

Exactly, the SUN represents GOD in HIS FULL GLORY. And that is the reason why MOSES was NOT ALLOWED to SEE the FACE OF GOD in His FULL GLORY. (Ex33:20) He will DIE.

In the same way, WE CANNOT LOOK at the SUN’S LIGHT DIRECTLY. Otherwise, OUR EYES WILL “DIE.”



And YET GOD allows us to SEE HIS LIGHT (the SECOND LIGHT), as shown by the LIGHT AROUND US.

MUSLIM said “the light shining around us has been filtered by the OZONE layer so the ultra-violate rays is diminished.”

That is WHAT GOD THE SON DID when HE BECAME MAN.

HE “DIMINISHED” His LIGHT so that WE CAN PERCEIVE HIM.

St. Paul puts it BEAUTIFULLY when he said in Philippians 2:6-7

“[JESUS] though he was in the FORM OF GOD, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped.

“Rather, HE EMPTIED HIMSELF, TAKING the FORM of A SLAVE, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance,”

GOD THE SON “DIMINISHED” His FULL QUALITIES as GOD so that WE COULD SEE HIM and TALK to HIM and HEAR HIM PERSONALLY.




And then MUSLIM said, “The light that enters our eyes is more diminished than the other two.”

Indeed, GOD ALLOWS HIMSELF to be “DIMINISHED” so that HE COULD ENTER US and DIRECTLY ENLIGHTEN US, just as the HOLY SPIRIT DWELLS in US and MAKES US HIS TEMPLE. (1Corinthians6:19)

God will DO ANYTHING and EVERYTHING (even to “DIMINISH” His “INTENSITY” just to SHOW US and MAKE US FEEL that HE LOVES US.

PRAISE THE LORD!





But then, MUSLIM has a recurring question: “[Is] any member of the trinity weaker than the other? I don’t think so.”

NO PERSON in the TRINITY is “weaker.” Two PERSONS just have “DIMINISHED INTENSITY.”

In the ANALOGY of LIGHT, ONLY the INTENSITY is “diminished” and NOT the NATURE of the LIGHT. The LIGHT REMAINS EXACTLY the SAME in SUBSTANCE, ESSENCE and NATURE.

In a similar manner, the ESSENCE, NATURE and SUBSTANCE of GOD REMAINS EXACTLY THE SAME even when GOD THE SON BECAME MAN and GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT ENTERED US.







MUSLIM tried to DISCREDIT the Bible by CLAIMING that it has “contradictions.”

He gave supposed contradictions and I PROVED that THOSE were NOT CONTRADICTIONS but PRODUCTS of MUSLIM’s IGNORANCE in the CONTEXT of the VERSES.

UNABLE to PROVE any CONTRADICTIONS, MUSLIM resorts to BLACK PROPAGANDA by INVENTING more supposed contradictions which then DUMPS in here WHOLESALE.

He is hoping that HE will be able to THROW MORE DIRT and LIES faster than we can clean them up.

But such STRATEGY is FUTILE.

The FACT that I already PROVED his EARLIER CLAIMS of CONTRADICTIONS as mere LIES, additional claims of contradictions would only serve as BLACK PROPAGANDA.

Given the TIME and SPACE, we CAN PROVE that there are NO CONTRADICTIONS in ALL OF the VERSES that MUSLIM claim to be contradictory.




Thus, MUSLIM FAILED to DISCREDIT the BIBLE.

The BIBLE is INDEED the WORD OF GOD.




TO GOD BE THE GLORY!

about 3 months ago · Delete Post

Interfaith Corner

VIOLATION OF THE DEBATE RULE BY CENON

8. Debaters should not extend their debate in the peanut gallery. They are not allowed to post in the gallery that will further support their argument, rally their supporters, and criticize the opponent during the duration of the debate. In other words, there is only one debate -- and it is in the main thread. The debate rules behavior applies in the gallery as well. I will exercise moderator rights in the gallery.

=== They are not allowed to post in the gallery that will further support their argument, rally their supporters, and criticize the opponent during the duration of the debate. ====


Rule is rule. Discipline is necessary. Observe the rules that you have agreed upon;

I officially declare Alyas Pogi as the WINNER BY DEFAULT in this debate.


Alyas Pogi may continue to post his conclusion despite my declaration for him as the winner by default.


Thanks



Admin-4



Original Posts of Cenon in the Gallery:

==============================================

ABDUL HALIL:
* QURAN “NOT COMPLETE”

MUSLIM said, “Quran really doesn’t provide all the details because it is general information – the details are in the sunnah.”

So, what MUSLIM is saying is that the QURAN is NOT COMPLETE, but the SAYINGS of their prophet is COMPLETE.

The WORDS of a MAN is MORE COMPLETE than what they believe as the “word of God”?

-----------response----------

Tingnan niyo ang HAKA HAKA ni cenon siguro nanginginig na sa galit hahaha..What a joke...nakakatawa nga ito si cenon pero masha ALLAH ganun pa man napapagtiyagaan ni ALYAS POGE kahit na balibaliko or pamimilosopo ang kasagutan ni cenon.


CENON:
AYAN po. NAGTATALO NA ang mga MUSLIM.

POGI. HAKA HAKA raw yung SINABI MO na HINDI KUMPLETO ang QURAN.

AKALA NIYA e AKIN yung STATEMENT MO na "Quran really doesn’t provide all the details."

NAKAKATAWA KA RAW.

Ayan na. MUSLIM VS MUSLIM.

SILA-SILA NA ang NAGKOKONTRAHAN.

White Jewel
Ang masaklap ngayon dyan ay yung conclusion ni Cenon, sa umpisa deneny ang sun analogy, ngayon binanatan ni Pogi ang light analogy, hindi marefute nu Cenon kaya ang sabi sun and light nalang daw,



CENON:
Uyyyy, MAGALING pala si WHITE JEWEL mag-COMENTO. Sa DEBATE TUMATAKBO. HEHEHE

PEACE!
========================================

about 3 months ago · Report

Alyas Pogi

Bismillah

Alhamdulillah, my first debate is great; I am declared as winner by default due to misbehavior of my Christian opponent Cenon Bibe –

Many people are asking whether what possessed Cenon Bibe is the Holy Spirit, the third member of their Trinity God because what we see from his first rebuttal till the end is extreme anger and frustrations in his inability to defend his arguments and his futile allegations against the Quran.

Cenon cant be satisfied and accept his clear defeat so that he even go beyond what is allowed by the rules which we both agreed upon in the beginning of this debate until he violated them and made him the BIG AND POOR LOSER in this debate.

I really pity Mr. Cenon.

Friends, ladies and gents - forget for a while the declaration of the Moderator that Cenon lost in this debate due to his being unruly/misbehavior. I want you to decide this debate based on how Cenon and I defended our respective arguments and which of our arguments is better or logical.

In my presentation, I defended that the Quran is the pure word of God because there is no single word in it which didn’t come from God. Angel Gabriel and Prophet Muhammad were mere conduits and they don’t have any word in the Quran; every word is God’s – that is what we mean by PURE word of God – UNMIXED.

Plus, God Himself called His final revelation as Quran, therefore it is not a man-made or invented name by anyone.

Cenon’s demand that the revelation should be face to face talking with God, but that is only his opinion because all Prophets received revelations in different ways and manner such as Abraham, Noah and others – So Cenon’s demand is simply begging the Question which is a very common fallacy in debates. He is trying to say that God cant reveal His word unless in face to face talking, yet his bible proves him wrong because Luke says that he wrote something because it seemed good to him to write, not because God talks to him. Therefore Cenon’s argument is a self-refuting one.

Moreover, God strengthen the Quran by CHALLENGING all people to bring a surah like it in 2:23. I cited a 4-verse surah for Cenon to refute but Cenon wasn’t able to answer the challenge, not even one sentence. Thanks God for proving His word to be purely TRUE.

Cenon IGNORANTLY accused the Muslims of adding the word “kitab” in the Quran because it was not kitab back then because it was not written in a book. That’s very ludicrous. The word “kitab” in Arabic as used in Islam could mean any book or set of revelation. The Quran calls the Jews and the Christians as people of the Book which means people who received the previous revelations i.e. the Taurah and the Injeel – People of the Book doesn’t mean that there are People inside the book.

So the Taurah is a kitab, and the Injeel was a kitab and the Quran is a kitab even before they were written in papers.

Maybe what Cenon tried to say is MUSHAF, not kitab – that is the fruit of IGNORANCE and copy paste from anti-Islamic webs.

I also refuted the allegation that Satan may have any word in the Quran by EXPOSING the deception of Cenon. He quoted half of the verse to make it look bad and cut out the remaining of it which ensures that though Satan may cast doubts to the Prophets’ minds God safeguarded His revelations and had them conveyed perfectly – The attempt of the Satan didn’t succeed. Jesus himself was tempted by Satan for 40 days yet he was able to resist it because God helped him.

I also defended that the disciples of Prophet Muhammad themselves who were eyewitnesses to the revelation and scribes to it compiled the Quran and the original Qurayshi mode was made as standard because it is the original dialect of Prophet Muhammad.

So from the Quranic contents, its writing and compilation, and its challenge in 2:23 which is unmet by anyone are proof enough to say that the Quran is INDEED the PURE WORD OF GOD.

Back to the bible.

It is clear that Cenon admitted that the word Bible doesn’t exist anywhere in the bible. God didn’t call His word as Bible – Bible simply means compilation of books, not necessarily word of God.

The scrutiny about the writers of the bible is SADLY undefended by Cenon – until now he doesn’t know who they are.

Cenon’s alibi that God is the ultimate authors of those books made his case horrible because he is in fact attributing ERRORS to God because those books are filled with contradictions, and we showed so many examples of those errors which none of them were answered by Cenon except for his semantic alibi in which no scholar could agree. Moreover, the numerical contradictions are SADLY unanswered and the absurdity of having evenings and mornings without the sun.

Plus, the fact that there is a clear PORNO in Ezekiel. Cenon wanted to tell us that Genitals like that of donkeys and horse don’t mean PENIS, and EMMISSION like that of horses doesn’t mean SEMEN, and FONDLED Breasts don’t mean BOOBS – read it gain friends and decide for yourself.

Cenon tried to convince us that the bible is Pure word of God because of the trinity, but how on earth the bible is the PURE word of God because Cenon believes in Trinity?? NO RELEVANCE WHATSOEVER!!!

Moreover, the trinity is nowhere found in the bible – Cenon said it means compiled book. So it doesn’t mean a revelation, let alone PURE word of God especially with the contradictions, pornography, personal words of people unknown to Jesus, unknown writers ect, ect, ect.

I also DUBUNKED the analogies of Cenon about the trinity.

First, he denied that his analogy was about the sun after reading my argument which destroys it completely

Later on he said that his analogy is not about the sun so he can escape. He said that the analogy is about the three lights. So I DEBUNKED it again by saying that the three lights in his analogy for the trinity FAILS miserably because they have a source while God has no source.


He then again changed his tune and said that I am correct in pointing out that the three lights have a source, the sun, which he said to be the father. He thought that he could escape but he failed to realized that he just made it extremely WORSE because it is now QUADRINITY instead of trinity, why?

If the sun is the father, then who are the three lights?

The three lights are supposed to be father, son, and holy spirit. BUT according to Cenon, the SUN is the source which represents the father in the trinity.

So WHO ARE THE OTHER THREE??

Sun - Father
Light 1 – Jesus
Light 2 – Holy Spirit
Light 3 – WHO IS light 3 CENON???

Maybe the GRANDSON or the DAUGHTER !!!!

Cenon ended up with QUADRINITY instead of trinity - so funny!

Very Ludicrous indeed!!!

So Im so sorry for Cenon, he is simply the undisputed LOSER in this debate even without the declaration of the Moderator.

I advice Cenon Bibe the Catholic to stud y more about his own scripture because his knowledge is very poor and elementary. If he doesn’t know the basics of his bible such as textual criticism, writers, ect, then he has no legitimate business of engaging in debate with other faiths especially with Muslims because we did study our scripture and we don’t use personal opinions.



Thank you and may God bless us, and may God guide Cenon Bibe to the truth.


AP

about 3 months ago · Report

Interfaith Corner

This conclude the debate.

No further post is allowed here.


Thank you.


Admin-4

about 3 months ago · Report